by Felix Quigley

I produce here the latter part of the latest quite mad screed from one Attila Hoare, close associate of Oliver Kamm, with connection right into the centre of the British Media, such as the Guardian, the Times, the Independent, the Irish Times and the granny of them all, the BBC.

One would be inclined to ignore these rantings of Hoare as that of a mad man, a man who seems to have lost all sense of perspective, whose world is total contradictory to the actual world the rest of us inhabit.

But that is also the world of the lying Media especially I would say in Britain, Ireland and Germany.

start quote here

This rioting and looting was not just the action of a few troublemakers; it is an expression of the new climate of violence and intimidation that the Kostunica regime and its allies in the Serbian Radical Party and other extreme right-wing and nationalist groups are deliberately encouraging. Hence the deliberate failure of the police to restrain the rioters or to protect the embassies. Former Serbian Prime Minister Zoran Zivkovic saidof the police: ‘I am sure they were told to let thugs smash all embassies on their way and then to deal with the aftermath.’ He said that Kostunica’s supporters ‘are now in a position to freely spit on everything that sounds and looks even remotely European… This is the decline of democracy in Serbia.’ Serbian Minister of the Economy Mladjan Dinkic condemnedthe ‘political parties that are justifying hooliganism, and are abusing the misery of the Serbian nation for political gains.’ Dinkic is an ally of Serbia’s pro-European President Boris Tadic. Significantly, the Croatian and Bosnian embassies were also attacked, even though Bosnia has no plans to recognise Kosova while Croatia has been fairly reticent about it: the vandals were venting chauvinistic rage – against symbols of the West and against Serbia’s ‘enemies’ in general – that reflects the new climate, and that has little specifically to do with Kosova. The Radicals, who provide the backbone to this nationalist coalition, are bona fide fascists: direct and conscious political heirs of the Nazi-collaborationist Chetniks of World War II; friends of France’s Jean-Marie Le Pen; and organisers of paramilitary forces directly involved in the mass-murder and ethnic cleansing of Muslims in Bosnia in the 1990s.

The target is not ultimately the US and its allies, or even the Kosova Albanians, but domestic opponents. Thugs attackedthe headquarters in several cities of the Liberal Democratic Party in Serbia, which accepts Kosova’s right to self-determination, as well as the homes of its leaders. According to Liberal Democrat sources, government minister Velimir Ilic threatenedthat Liberal Democrat leader Cedomir Jovanovic should feel ‘lucky if he stays alive until March, but that it will not be easy.’ Serbia’s organs of law and order have failed to respond to the attacks on the Liberal Democrats. Aleksandar Vucic, Secretary General of the Radicals, said the victims were themselves to blame: ‘parties which recognize Kosovo’s independence were responsible for the riots.’ Serbia’s leading independent media station, B92, is also under threat. According to its director, Veran Matic: ‘The threats escalated in the last couple of days through e-mails and on different internet forums where some people openly make plans for burning the B92 building. This building is state property and B92 is only a tenant. The last threat came as a video on Youtube in which someone calls for the assassination of our journalists. The B92 shop in the centre of Belgrade was destroyed during the protest last Sunday.’ Ilic personally threatened: ‘Those people at B92 and other media had better be careful how they talk about those young people [the rioters].’ When rebuked by Snezana Markovic, Minister for Youth and Sport, Ilic threatened her too: ‘Madam, you have been in sports for two months, and I have been for twenty years. Be careful, the sportspeople will come to you.’

Over the past week, reporters, photographers and TV crews have been frequently attacked and injured by masked assailants. Meanwhile Ivica Dacic, the leader of the Socialist Party of Serbia, saidhe would call for a ban on all political parties and non-governmental organisations which recognise Kosovo’s independence. He singled out in particular the human-rights activist Natasa Kandic.

Although it is the media, human-rights activists and the Liberal Democrats that are on the receiving end of the violence, the ultimate target is the section of the Serbian political establishment grouped around pro-European President Tadic and his Democratic Party, which shares power in Serbia’s coalition government with Kostunica’s supporters. Tadic defeated the Radical leader Tomislav Nikolic in the presidential election earlier this month, and has been falling out with his erstwhile ally, Prime Minister Kostunica, who failed to support him against Nikolic, while Kostunica’s own popular support has been dwindling. The nationalists grouped around Nikolic and Kostunica were therefore faced with a political eclipse. They are using the Kosova crisis to regain the upper hand in their power-struggle with Tadic. The latter is the prisoner of his own contradictory policy: pro-European but supportive of the nationalist position over Kosova, he has found himself outflanked by the chauvinistic eruption that Kostunica is fostering. Serbian Defence Minister Dragan Sutanovic, a member of Tadic’s Democratic Pary, saidthat yesterday was ‘one of Belgrade’s saddest days’ on account of the violence. But it is a tragedy for which Tadic and the Democratic Party are in large part responsible: by failing to challenge the nationalist consensus over Kosova, they have left themselves and democratic Serbia defenceless against an assault of this kind. For all his undoubted pro-European sympathies, Tadic has played the role of a Serbian Hindenburg. This may not save him: on the day of the Belgrade demonstration, Russian state television lauded the assassinationof his predecessor, Serbian Prime Minister and Democratic Party leader Zoran Djindjic, describing him as a ‘puppet of the West’ who ‘received the bullet he deserved’.

The nationalist-fascist coalition behind Nikolic and Kostunica is therefore trying to achieve through mob violence and intimidation what its members have failed to achieve through the polls. Its ultimate goal is the establishment of a Putin- or Lukashenka-style authoritarian-nationalist regime in Serbia, under which the media will be controlled, journalists and human-rights activists assassinated when necessary, and the economy colonised by Russia. Serbia’s suspension of diplomatic relations with Western states that are recognising Kosova conveniently burns the bridges to the democratic West and creates the isolation that the nationalists crave. This is not what most Serbian people want. It is one thing to be unhappy about the loss of Kosova, but to favour turning Serbia into an isolated, impoverished Cuban- or North-Korean-stye satrapy of Russia, under a repressive regime that condones mob rule and murders dissidents, is quite another. The opinion of the majority of Serbians is probably best represented by Tadic: angry about losing Kosova, they nevertheless do not want this issue to stand in the way of Serbia’s European integration. The Serb-nationalist commentator at the inappropriately named website, Nebojsa Malic, a supporter of Nikolic and of the late Milosevic, wrote bitterlythat Tadic’s election victory proved that the Serbian people were insufficiently warlike, and would not want war in response to the loss of Kosova: ‘After all, what are the Serbs going to do, fight? They’ve just shown they don’t have the guts.’ Which is one way of describing a healthy Serbian popular aversion to renewed war and isolation. But as in Italy in the early 1920s and Germany in the early 1930s, a violent, determined minority is entirely capable of intimidating and crushing a passive majority.

This brings us back to where we began: the alignment of forces in the world for and against Kosova’s independence. On the one side stands most of the democratic world; on the other, an unholy alliance of authoritarian regimes that are either hostile to the West, or that want to be free to crush their subject nationalities without fear of outside interference. The conflict within Serbia is essentially the same struggle in miniature. In this context, to abandon democratic Serbia – both the mainstream pro-European democrats under Tadic and the brave independent journalists and human rights activists – would be to hand a victory to our enemies globally.

We must stand by democratic Serbia. This means continuing to work with all pro-European elements towards Serbia’s Euro-Atlantic integration, while pressing them to confront more resolutely the chauvinistic poison. Tadic must be pressed to come down off the fence, to break completely with Kostunica and the nationalists and to repudiate publicly their destabilisation of Kosova and intimidation of domestic opponents. Not one inch of groundshould be conceded to the nationalist-fascist coalition, in Kosova, Bosnia or anywhere else. Milorad Dodik, Prime Minister of Bosnia’s Serb Republic (Republika Srpska – RS), spoke at yesterday’s demonstration in Belgrade and aligned himself with the nationalists, stating that Serbia, and not Bosnia, was the RS’s ‘fatherland’. This appears to mark the beginning of his campaign to break up Bosnia and unite the RS with Serbia to form a Great Serbia. It is high time that we completed the reintegration into a unified Bosnia of the RS – the product of a genocide that the International Court of Justice, European Court of Human Rights and the UN’s war-crimes tribunal in the Hague have all recognised. This would serve the dual purpose of reducing the nationalist ability for mischief-making in the Balkans and strengthening Bosnia as a pillar of the European order. The Stabilisation and Association Agreement should be signed with Serbia as soon as possible – to punish Serbia with further isolation would only play into the hands of the nationalist-fascist coalition that wantsisolation. Above all, we must take the necessary steps to secure fully the Kosova-Serbia border, prevent the entry of Serbian government personnel and other trouble-makers, and rapidly reintegrate northern Kosova with the rest of the country.

This is a battle that, provided the leaders of Europe and the US are resolute, we cannot lose. It will not be won overnight; as with the overthrow of Milosevic, the defeat of the new crop of Serbian fascists may require years of patient promotion of a democratic alternative. But if our will falters and we do lose, the consequences could be catastrophic, not just for the Balkans, but for Europe and the world.

from the latter part of What is at stake in the struggle for Serbia by Attila Hoare, posted by Hoare 24 February, 2008

end quote here

This is a strange world that Hoare inhabits.

Perhaps readers will find it a puzzle. I think myself that the key to Hoare and Kamm too for that matter is their position towards the Jews of Israel and how that compares with the position of Leon Trotsky in the late 30s.

Trotsky was a socialist revolutionary and he threw himself into the struggle to save the Jews.

 But in doing so he broke from the formality of Marx and Lenin. He stated that the Jews were a nation and that this nation had to have a state of its own, a piece of land on which they would be safe from antisemitism.

The Jews were facing the scourge of antisemitism in the 1930s. Something similar to that, at least an echo of that, has befallen the Serbs in the 90s.

The response of Hoare is the precise opposite to that of Trotsky. Hoare has led and joined up with the Serb haters. Fot that he will be damned forever. Hoare has picked up phrases from Marxism etc, such as when he refers to Nicolic as being Fascist. So in the mind of Hoare anything to do with Serbian nationalism equals Fascism.

The thing to remember though is that some of this thinking from Hoare forms the basis of much of the Media’s lies about the Serbs even as we speak.


  1. Felix, I got to this part in Hoare’s insane pro-Nazi drivel and almost choked on my breakfast:
    “The Radicals, who provide the backbone to this nationalist coalition, are bona fide fascists: direct and conscious political heirs of the Nazi-collaborationist Chetniks of World War II…”

    Marko Attila Hoare is a PHONY. A lying, duplicitous, disingenuous, hypocritical FRAUD. This guy pretends to be a “scholar” and “historian”. He is nothing of the sort! He is simply a NAZI and ISLAMOFASCIST APOLOGIST, just like his imperialist “Leftie” sidekick, Oliver Kamm is.

    This British wacko Attila Hoare is a WRP (Workers’ Revolutionary Party) “Communist”- turned “Democratic Socialist”- turned US-NATO-EU imperialist and lunatic son of an ultra-nationalist (pro-Ustasha) Croatian mother (Branka Magas).

    Attila Hoare accuses anybody and everybody whom disagrees with him on the ex-Yugoslavia issue of being a “Nazi” or “Fascist”, when in reality Attila Hoare is nothing but a crypto-Fascist/Nazi himself!!

    Marko Attila Hoare – whom incidentally masqeurades as an “historian” and “scholar” (what a sick joke that is!)- supports the genocidal Croatian Ustasha Nazis under Tudjman and Mesic, the al Qaeda-backed Bosnian Islamofascists under Izetbegovic,Ganic and Silajdzic, and last ,but certainly not least: the al Qaeda-backed Albanian Islamofascist Nazi mafia gangster terrorists known as the KLA(UCK) who specialize in Heroin trafficking,white child sex slavery,racketeering and mass murder.

    And yet he has the unmitigated gall: the brazen, shameless audacity to engage in historical revisionism by turning history upside down with his preposterous claim that the World War 2 Yugoslav Royalist Serbian ANTI-Nazi guerrilla ALLIED RESISTANCE group led by Draza Mihajlovic – known as the “Chetniks” – were, according to Attila Hoare’s psychopathological delusional revisionist version of WW2 history: “Nazi collaborationists”!!

    Attila Hoare fails to tell us that Draza Mihajlovic – the leader of the World War 2 Royalist Yugoslav/Serbian Resistance to Hitler’s invading Nazi hordes – was posthumously granted the Highest Decoration that the United States can award to a foreign ally during wartime: THE LEGION OF MERIT!!

    This guy Attila Hoare is nothing but a disgusting, pathetic, lying, pro-Nazi, pro-Islamofascist hypocritical FRAUD.

    He needs to be exposed and condemned thoroughly and regularly by ALL Jewish and Serbian groups who value historical truth, justice, liberty and freedom from the scourge of Nazism, Islamofascism and anti-semitism.



    (Please visit:

  2. Josh

    Hoare is certainly in no way any kind of socialist. Hoare would not even qualify for membership to the old Keir Hardie Labour Party. He would only get away with membership of Blair’s New Labour. In other words Hoare is a supporter of Imperialism, of US Imperialism, of EU Imperialism, of its repressive creations in NATO, UNMIK (United Nations Mission in Kosovo) etc, of the Hague Court apparatus of repression.

    To deal with a character like Hoare, and he is really more than a single character, rather a political trend with wide ramifications, because his thinking extends into the whole of the Media, especially of the Guardian, Independent, Irish Times, and countless others… Perhaps those latter (including the BBC) are more sophisticated but the same nevertheless, you need to operate from a real political base or tradition.

    Leon Trotsky began a big change in his own thinking and thereby effected a break with the classical Marxist past when he assessed the Jews as a Nation and at the same time (roughly in the last decade of his life – the Thirties) he along with that put forward the contention that the Ukraine must be totally independent, an independent nation. The importance of the Ukraine is that for Trotsky it was not just a Jewish issue, his thinking was going along the lines of general truths re nationalism and national liberation. He thus dismissed the long held idea that the Jews future lay in assimilation, something that was held by Lenin and Trotsky earlier, in the sense that the Socialist Revolution would solve all of their problems. Especially the problem of antisemitism.

    These revolutionaries, none of them, and I include Marx in this as well, were never anti-Semitic but they thought that the socialist revolution would sweep away the problem of anti-Semitism.

    In articles I wrote for Israpundit which were not at all well received I traced the intense struggle of Trotsky to deal with these issues

    It did not happen immediately but in the end…Trotsky’s revision was comprehensive and was many sided. First of all he said they the Jewish people undoubtedly were a Nation. Secondly and anyway in the context of impending Nazi slaughter he said they could not wait for socialism. The urgency was now. The Jews had to save themselves as a people from extinction. It is not one or the other. These two concepts are intertwined.

    That is an aspect of his thinking and general method which is important. Trotsky was not a doctrinaire socialist. He was a very practical and sentient political person.

    Hoare with his roots in these groups like the WRP, IMG etc, what I have been calling Fascist Lefts, which I think I will change and start calling them something like “Fascist Antisemitic Faux Leftists” and even at that I query using the word Left in any way in describing them, is really the very opposite to Trotsky in every way, in his method of thinking, in his practice, in the political positions he takes up.

    Specifically on Hoare. There is no doubt that this man is filled with hatred for Serbs as a nation. He hates it when these Serbs shout their nationhood from the trees. This is what Hoare calls Fascism. Hoare likes Serbs to be quiet and docile and do what big daddy US and EU Imperialisms instruct.

    To make his Fascism claim stick Hoare and Kamm have to go on to claim that the Serbs, and Milosevic, were involved in pursuit of a Greater Serbia and thus wanted the break-up of the Yugoslavian State. They do have some difficulty in doing this. That is when the invention and sheer lying begins.

    The fellow travellers of Kamm are everywhere.

    There is some daring in the approach of these reactionaries like Kamm and Hoare. Their idea is to create a lie so big, that is so outlandish, that has no evidence, but the atrocity that the Serbs have committed is so gross that to deny it is unthinkable. This is what Srebrenica means to Kamm, to Hoare and to all of these Media people.

    In doing this Kamm ignores the real Srebrenica Massacre which IS heavily documented.

    But Kamm no matter how he searches cannot find any evidence that the Serb Army in entering Srebrenica committed one murder, never mind the totally artificial figure of 8000 that they somehow settled upon.

    The whole thing was a hoax from beginning to end. The most necessary and obvious scientific evidence of the identity of dead was excluded deliberately. I refer of course to their refusal to use DNA evidence. They excluded DNA for a specific purpose.

    Neil Craig on his A Place to Stand blog has some points to make on this issue of the Srebrenica Fakery and DNA. I hope to rewrite this with better links and post it as a separate article because connected with this Kosovo issue is the whole issue of these lies spread about by the “Grahams and Venishkas” of Harrys Place etc.

    So to Vigilante…wait, we will produce the evidence of these Imperialist lies against the Serbs here on this site and you can comment and then prove us wrong.

  3. “When will Serbia examine its own role in the dissolution of former Yugoslavia, particularly its actions in Bosnia and Kosova?”

    First of all, “Vigilante”, there is no such place as “KosovA”.As “InfidelWarrior” from the US, has explained on a previous thread…

    (Quote from I.W. begins here)

    How on earth does “Kosovo belong to Albania” except during World War 2 when it was part of a Fascist-Nazi puppet state of “Greater Albania” under the Nazi Germans and Fascist Italians??

    There is no such place as “KosovA” except in the “Greater Albanian” separatists’ language.

    The word “KosovO” is a SERBIAN word. You use this mis-spelling of the name because you wanted to change its identity to that of what your Islamofascist-Nazi buddies in the KLA-UCK refer to as “Dardania” but cannot as that would reveal to Western audiences the Islamofascist-Nazi KLA-UCK project for a “Greater Albania”, so you use the mis-spelt term “KosovA” to hide this project for a Fascist “Greater Albania”.

    See the Albanian KLA-UCK project for a “Greater Albania” here with their very own map they produced!

    (Quote from I.W. ends here)

    So, “Vigilante”, if you have documented evidence (i.e. concrete PROOF) that Serbia had a “role” in the “dissolution” of Yugoslavia as you claim here (and your very clear implication here also that the Islamofascists Izetbegovic, Silajdzic & Ganic in Bosnia and the Islamist-Nazis Thaci,Ceku,Demaci & Haradinaj in the KLA were somehow NOT to blame for the dissolution”), I am eagerly awaiting your documented evidence proving your accusations against the Serbs and Serbia.



  4. Felix,

    What a strange company are these “socialists” with their shameful support for one of the bloodies regimes of the 20th century.
    The Jews in 30s did not kill anyone, the Serbs in 90s killed tens of thousands of innocent people in the Balkans.
    You wrote some pretty offensive stuff about Mr. Hoare without providing a single argument!


  5. “…the Serbs in 90s killed tens of thousands of innocent people in the Balkans.”

    That’s a total LIE and you know it Prenj. Where is your documented evidence (i.e., from NON-Soros,non-NATO sources) to support your racist anti-Serbian claims??

    This NATO/corporate-controlled fiction has been repeatedly exposed as a Goebbels’ style Nazi “Big Lie” on the following websites:

    “You wrote some pretty offensive stuff about Mr. Hoare without providing a single argument!”

    There is nothing “offensive” about telling the truth and exposing Mr. Hoare’s blatant Goebbels’ Nazi-style lies. Check out the other articles on Mr. Hoare on this site.

    There is plenty of material exposing Oliver Kamm and his sidekick Hoare on Neil Clark’s blog site too:

  6. It’s waste of time to argue with you about facts that even the Bosnian Serb Republic officials publicly accepted. Here you may read the Srebrenica Report made by RS government in 2004. where number of Srebrenica victims is estimated to several thousands with a lots of bloody details
    Also, I would recommend you to present in future your version of history in a more subtle manner, it may attract more readers apart from Serb nationalists.

  7. Prenj, that’s quite right, it is NO USE to “argue” with somebody whom is well acquainted with the true FACTS of the period from 1990 to 1999 in the former Yugoslavia.

    Prenj, you, just like the pro-Islamofascist/pro-Nazi Imperialist apologist swine Marko Attila Hoare, may indeed think that you are very smart, but, we at 4International are a hell of a lot smarter than you may think we are, my Croat/Albanian/Bosnian Moslem Islamofascist-Ustasha Nazi enemy!

    I am very well aware of that bogus, phony, so-called “confession” that the Republic of Srpska (Bosnian Serbian Government in Bosnia) was FORCED to sign in favor of the Islamist-Nazi version of events, by the pro-Nazi/pro-Islamofascist British Imperialist – Lord Paddy “Pants Down” – Ashdown!!

    Prenj, if you have any doubts about our extensive knowledge concerning this very subject, then I suggest you take a look at Peter Robert North’s article, “The Real Srebrenica Genocide”.

    Peter Robert North, whom is of mixed Jewish and Christian Zionist background, has repeatedly exposed this ridiculous FORCED signing of a totally BOGUS “confession” by by the Bosnian Serb “Republic of Srpska” government due to the THREATS made by British Imperialist Paddy “Pants Down” Ashdown that he was going to SACK the entire “Republic of Srpska” government if they refused to agree to the Bosnian Islamofascist Izetbegovic SDA party myth of “8,000 Bosnian Moslem men and boys executed in Srebrenica”.

    See here for proof of this:

    “US Official Implicated With Bosnian High Representative Ashdown in Attempting to Force Fabricated Report on Srebrenica”

    Clinton opens a monument dedicated to Al Qaeda fighters and bows to it!”

    “Srebrenica Controversy Becomes Increasingly Politicized and Ethnically Divisive, Increasing Pressure on Peacekeepers”

  8. Let me repeat one more time: I would recommend you to present your version of history in a more subtle manner, it may attract more readers apart from Serb nationalists.

  9. Prenj

    This is what I propose we shall do:

    We shall answer the latest attack by Kamm on Milosevic as a representative of rightful Serb nationalism which is precisely what Milosevic at his best was.

    Kamm has just written:

    This, incidentally, was the context for what Melanie calls “the war so unwisely prosecuted… against Serbia” – or to put it more accurately, Nato’s intervention to rebuff Milosevic’s genocidal campaign against Kosovar Albanians. In pursuit of a Greater Serbia, Milosevic had already caused mayhem. By September 1998, some 300,000 people had fled their homes, the great majority of them Kosovar Albanians, in response to Milosevic’s scorched-earth policy of destroying entire villages. Nato’s intervention prevented a humanitarian catastrophe.

    “Is this crazy?” feb 25

    The centre of the lie against the Serbs is still Srebrenica.

    It is upon that that the position of Kamm and HOare stand or falls.

    It is a little like the issue in Israel of the Palestinian Arab refugees. That also was the Big Lie that was engineered against the Jews.

    In a setries of clear and calm articles we will show in coming weeks that the Srebrenica issue was a Lie planted by an assortment of reactionary forces.

    Having done that it will be clear that this Big Lie technique was carried over onto the Kosovo issue.

    I am aware of the technique of Prenj here.

    He attacks us as being too vehement against Hoare, but Hoare has just been calling all sorts of people in Serbia “Fascists”.This is part of the Big Lie technique.

    Prenj wait for our articles. Then we will offer you space to reply. OK?

  10. “I would recommend you to present your version of history in a more subtle manner, it may attract more readers apart from Serb nationalists.”

    Prenj, stop trying to throw up red herrings and decoys in the form of your assertion about supposed “versions of history”. We at 4International are here to present the TRUTH and FACTS with plenty of supporting documented evidence. And as far as the “Serb nationalists” jibe, we have heard that all before from the likes of Kamm, Hoare and the liberal corporate controlled media who use that cliched jibe because they have no evidence to back up their non-existent arguments.

    We are here to present the TRUTH to working class people from all walks of life and not just Jews or Serbs, even though we support them both in their struggle against the forces of NATO-EU Imperialism and their Islamofascist/Nazi pawns.

    If you have documented proof from non-NATO,non-Soros sources that we are lying, then present it, otherwise cease and desist from using the “Serb nationalists” red herring.

  11. Shalom Felix,

    I just got this e-mailed from Nathan. It was a comment he posted on Israpundit in 2007.

    I thought you may be interested in reading it as it is about Srebrenica and the fact that the NATO owned Hague ICTY Kangaroo Court’s British so-called “judges” used the “testimony” of a mentally deranged person (a Croat by the name of Drazen Erdemovic) to convict a Serb General by the name of Radoslav Krstic in Bosnia in the mid-1990’s.

    This mentally ill Croat Drazen Erdemovic, was used by the British imperialist judges at that phony NATO owned “court” to not only convict this Serb General, but also to demonize the entire Serbian nation.

    Drazen Erdemovic’s “testimony” at the Hague Kangaroo Court is CENTRAL to the Srebrenica myth propagated by the US/NATO imperialist mass-murdering pro-Islamofascist criminals who bombed Serbia and killed thousands of innocent Serbian men, women and children.



    that guy Drazen Erdemovic whom was mentioned in that ICTY report extract you posted in comment #4 was an ethnic Croat who just happened to be part of an 8 man mercenary squad (comprised of Muslims,Croats,Serbs)who served in Zaire (now the Democratic Republic of Congo) as mercenaries on behalf of French Intelligence.

    These 7 other mercenaries, who according to Erdemovic’s story allegedly took part in the killings of anywhere between 200 and 1,200 Srebrenica Muslims weren’t even indicted by the ICTY and remain free to this day!

    Let’s assume Erdemovic is telling the truth (even if they can’t find the 1,200 bodies showing signs of execution to prove it). Why is it that the ICTY Hague “tribunal” never issued an indictment for any of them? Not even one? Why are they all free to this day?

    So according to Erdemovic’s “testimony”, he and his mercenary colleagues allegedly killed between 200 and 300 Muslims (the OTP – Office of the Prosecutor – claims up to 1,200) but then he was never indicted by the ICTY, the OTP never even claimed there were any massacres in the specific areas Erdemovic said there were prior to his arrest by the Serbian police, and none of his mercenary colleagues gets indicted by the ICTY for any crimes – real or imagined.

    Can someone smell a rat here?

    Erdemovic himself was never committed to stand “trial” at The Hague ICTY where his claims would be suject to critical scrutiny: the rigours of cross-examination (the excuse given by the ICTY was that he was mentally unfit to stand trial because of a psychological disorder – but not so mentally unfit to prevent him from being a witness for the OTP and giving “evidence” on behalf of the OTP against Krstic,Karadzic,Mladic and Milosevic!).

    Erdemovic was released after serving only a little over 4 years (originally a 10 year sentence halved by the ICTY to 5 years via “plea bargaining” after he turned OTP witness against Karadzic,Mladic & Milosevic).

    Originally, there was no ICTY indictment issued against Erdemovic: he was initially arrested by the Serbian police in 1996 after publicly boasting he had participated “in a massacre” in Bosnia following a drunken brawl in Serbia in which he ended up suffering gunshot wounds – allegedly perpetrated by someone whom he never pressed charges against for shooting him.

    He later pleaded with the Serbian police to be voluntarily sent to The Hague ICTY because he was not even a Yugoslav-Serbian citizen, but a Croatian citizen instead.

    So, to recap: the Yugoslav-Serbian authorities arrested Erdemovic initially because of his public statements that he participated in a massacre in Bosnia and wanted to try him in Serbia for his alleged crimes, but then later agreed to voluntarily hand him over to The Hague ICTY to be put on “trial” (which of course never really happened – he turned “witness” for the OTP – Office of The Prosecutor- and was granted a plea bargain reduced sentence of 5 years. To top it all off, none of his testimony was ever subject to rigorous cross examination).

    This all happened in 1995-1996 when Milosevic was president of Serbia.

    During Milosevic’s “trial” at the ICTY, Milosevic said he would prove that Erdemovic and his seven mercenary colleagues were working under the instructions and command of French Intelligence and not under the command of the Bosnian Serb Army (VRS) during the month of July, 1995 when the Bosnian Serb Army recaptured Srebrenica.

    The fact that none of Erdemovic’s colleagues were ever indicted by the ICTY – including Erdemovic himself who was arrested by Serbian authorities and voluntarily handed over to the ICTY at his own insistence – strongly suggests that Milosevic was on the right track.

    Erdemovic’s “testimony” at the ICTY contained numerous inconsistencies and implausible scenarios – some of which are listed below:

    Erdemovic, although he confessed the murder of between 10 and 100 unarmed men, was given a five year sentence by the ICTY. This was partly because he showed “remorse” and partly because his testimony was key in convicting General Krstic and evidence for the indictments against Mlatko Radic and Radovan Karadzic.

    There are several problems with his testimony however:

    Erdemovic was diagnosed with a severe case of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), which delayed his testimony to the ICTY.

    Erdemovic had difficulty describing the men he shot and could not say if they were blindfolded or not, were facing towards him or not, or whether their hands were bound or not or even approximately how many there were
    Erdemovic said his unit was deployed to Pilica by a “Lieutenant Colonel”, but this man has never been named by the ICTY or in ICTY testimony and it is not even clear whether this Lt. Colonel was in the VRS or another military organization. In fact, Erdemovic stated he knew the man was a Lt. Colonel because he saw his “rank and insignia” on his uniform, but he did not have his name on the uniform.

    Erdemovic said only he and 7 other members of the 10th Sabotage Group were ordered to commit the first massacre (the Branjevo Farm incident) yet earlier stated that unit did not engage in combat and had never killed anyone and was primarily a reconnaissance unit.

    Erdemovic said he only obeyed the order to kill the unarmed men because he feared for his life and was warned he would be executed too if he did not obey, yet later the same day he refused a direct order from the same commanding officer to participate in the Pilica gov’t building massacre.

    Erdemovic refused to press charges against the Serb soldier who (allegedly) shot him four times.

    While in the hospital in Serbia (Yugoslavia) recovering from his wounds, Erdemovic met another member of the group of soldiers who participated in the Pilica gov’t building massacre. That soldier said he had been paid a large sum of gold for participating (Erdemovic was not). It was only after this that he told the media about the incidents.

    Erdemovic testified that he had not been paid for a year and a half before he spoke to the media.

    Erdemovic testified he could not remember how much he was paid as a member of the 10th Sabotage Group, or what his responsibilities were, or what his military contract stated.

    Some of Erdemovic’s testimony was given during closed sessions, for which transcripts do not exist.

    Erdemovic’s testimony was also allowed to be used in an “Article 61″ hearing against Ratko Mladic (VRS military commander) and Radovan Karadzic (VRS political leader). This is highly controversial because under ICTY rules, this testimony is not allowed to be cross-examined. In other words, Erdemovic’s confession was never allowed to be cross-examined by anyone.

    Please read the Conclusions of the Srebrenica Research Group which Ted has posted on Israpundit once before,

    and Scandal in the Hague, Part I by George Pumphrey.

    Comment by Nathan Pearlstein — February 28, 2007 @ 9:49 am

  12. Prenj,

    yes they ARE indeed credible for many reasons.

    I will give you just a few:

    1) They consist of former UN officials who served ON THE GROUND in ex-Yugoslavia during the crucial time period from 1991 to 1995 including Phillip Corwin: former UN Civilian Affairs Coordinator in Bosnia and former speechwriter for UN Secretary-General Perez de Cuellar. Corwin is the author of Dubious Mandate: A Memoir of the UN in Bosnia and Doomed in Afghanistan. Another former UN official Carlos Martins Branco, served as Deputy Director of UNMO (UN monitors in Bosnia) and debriefed UN observers from Srebrenica

    2)They also consist of former journalists from the mainstream press (e.g. the BBC, et al) who were appalled at the lies being propagated by the media and could no longer keep silent.For example, BBC Journalist Jonathan Rooper, who currently works as a publicist in London and former New York Press columnist George Szamuely, who has written for US and UK publications currently works for the National Law Journal in New York.

    3) They consist of independent sholars such as Michael Mandel, Professor of International Law at York University in Toronto, whom has written extensively on the bogus NATO owned “War Crimes Tribunal” Kangaroo Court in the Hague. Another commentator on media coverage of conflict, is Dr. Philip Hammond of London South Bank University.

    4) Have NO connection with George Soros NOR are paid by his “foundations”.Have NO connection with Soros’ so-called “think tanks”, “NGOs” or Soros-funded media outlets.

    5)They consist of independent NON-Soros non-partisan researchers affiliated with the prestigious Washington D.C. based International Strategic Studies Association and Defense & Foreign Affairs Strategic Policy Group – in operation for over 36 years – which does NOT consist of US foreign policy establishment elites nor government spokesmen nor establishment bureaucrats, has NO connection to the Neo-conservatives in George Bush’s administration NOR any connections to the former Clinton administration either.

    6) Have NO connection with NATO nor the EU, nor do they include current or former NATO officials or bureaucrats who are war criminals under international law for having
    participated in, or otherwise endorsed, the 79 day bombing campaign against civilians in Serbia and Montenegro which was a violation of the UN Charter, NATO’s very own charter, the US Constitution, the Geneva Convention, and the Helsinki Final Act of 1975.

    7) Have NO connection whatsoever with Globalist establishment elite thinks tanks like the CFR (Council on Foreign Relations), The Trilateral Commission, the Bilderberg Group, the CSIS, Carnegie Endowment, Brookings Institution, RAND Corporation, nor ANY other similar Globalist establishment elite groups.

    8] Were NOT a party to NATO’s 79 day criminal terror bombing campaign of Yugoslav civilians(Serbs,Jews,Romanies, Albanians,Hungarians,Croats,Egyptians,Turks,Gorani and many other of the 26 nationalities that reside in multi-ethnic Serbia) -a brutal bombing campaign which resulted in thousands of deaths -including hundreds of Albanian civilian casualties – not just Serbs.

    I could go on, but those 8 reasons should suffice for now.

    See the International Strategic Studies Association’s Defense & Foreign Affairs Strategic Policy Report below:
    UN Press Conference New York July 12, 2005

    Srebrenica Propaganda Challenged by Independent Research

    Researchers and Former UN Officials
    Challenge Portrayal of Events at Srebrenica

    Global Research, July 28, 2005
    Defense & Foreign Affairs Strategic Policy, July 2005

    Two former senior UN officials, along with a group of journalists and academic researchers, cast serious doubt on what they say are “highly inflated casualty figures and a misleading portrayal of events by governments, non governmental organizations and major news organizations.”

    On Monday afternoon, the Srebrenica Research Group, joined by former UN officials Phillip Corwin and Carlos Martins Branco, released conclusions from their 200 page report “Srebrenica and the Politics of War Crimes” which says that US policy undermined UN and European brokered peace settlements which could have ended the war in 1992 or 1993 to pursue a military solution which inevitably endangered safe zones. By facilitating shipments of illegal weapons to Muslim forces, the US helped turn safe zones into staging areas for conflict and tripwires for NATO intervention. The group, which will soon release the full report, announced the following conclusions:

    — The premise that Serbian forces executed 7,000 to 8,000 people “was never a possibility,” according to former BBC journalist Jonathan Rooper, who has investigated the events that followed the capture of Srebrenica on site and through official records over many years, and whose findings are presented in the upcoming report of the Srebrenica Research Group. He notes that by the first week of August 1995, 35,632 people had registered with the World Health Organization and Bosnian Government as displaced persons, survivors of Srebrenica, a figure, which was later referred to Amnesty International report and the report of the Dutch government.

    Rooper notes that at International Committee of the Red Cross and the New York Times reported that about 3000 Muslim soldiers who fought their way across Serb held territory to Muslim lines near Tuzla, were also survivors. The ICRC confirmed that these soldiers were redeployed by the Bosnian Army “without their families being informed.” The figure of 3000 soldiers who survived was also confirmed by Muslim General Enver Hadzihasanovic who testified at the Hague. These figures make it clear that at least 38,000 Srebrenica residents survived out of a population of 40,000 before the capture of the enclave. Around 2000 Muslims who fled with the 28th division were killed, most by fighting, but also hundreds executed by paramilitary units and a mercenary group.

    — US policy in Bosnia endangered safe zones by opposing UN requests to provide enough personnel to demilitarize these enclaves and by facilitating illegal arms shipments to Muslim forces through C-130 Hercules night time deliveries to the Tuzla airport. The US Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) led this operation, which also welcomed Mujahadeen fighters allied with al-Qaeda, according Professor Cees Wiebes who wrote the intelligence section of the Dutch government report on Srebrenica.

    — Despite signing the demilitarization agreement, Bosnian Muslim forces in Srebrenica were well armed and under orders to engage in provocations (“sabotage operations”) against Serbian forces. Muslim General Sefer Halilovic confirmed in his testimony at the Hague Tribunal that there were at least 5500 members of the Muslim 28th division in Srebrenica and that he had arranged at least eight helicopter loads of sophisticated weapons. He also testified that “in those days [immediately before the capture of Srebrenica], there were a large number of orders for sabotage operations from the safe areas.” This included a militarily meaningless attack on a strategically unimportant nearby Serb village of Visnica. The final operation was an attack on Serbian VRS units on the road south of Srebrenica, just days before the Serbs captured the nearly undefended town.

    — Instead of defending the town with a force of 5500 well armed soldiers, the Bosnian Army 28th Division was ordered to evacuate Srebrenica two days before a small force of 200 Bosnian Serb forces (according Muslim General Halilovic and the London Times) entered the nearly empty town on July 11. By provoking the Serbs to enter Srebrenica unopposed, Bosnian President hoped to trigger NATO intervention. British military analyst Tim Ripley writes that prior to its capture, Dutch troops “saw Bosnian troops escaping from Srebrenica move past their observation points, carrying brand new anti-tank weapons. This, and other similar reports made many UN officers and international journalists suspicious.” Former UN Deputy Director of UN Monitors, Carlos Martins Branco said “Muslim forces did not even try to take advantage of their heavy artillery, under control of the United Nations (UN) forces at a time in which they had every reason to do so … Military resistance would jeopardize the image of ‘victim’, which had been so carefully constructed, and which the Muslims considered vital to maintain.”

    — The International Criminal Tribunal on Yugoslavia (ICTY) whose staff had been largely appointed by Madeleine Albright, then US Ambassador to the United Nations, acknowledged political considerations when they issued indictments for genocide against Bosnian Serb leaders in on July 27, only three days after their chief investigator Hubert Wieland told the Daily Telegraph that in five days of interviews with scores among the 20,000 refugees gathered at the Tuzla airport: “We have not found anyone who saw with their own eyes an atrocity taking place.” Richard Holbrooke candidly told the BBC “I realized that the War Crimes Tribunal was a very valuable tool. We used it to keep the two most wanted war criminals in Europe out of the Dayton process and we used it to justify everything that followed.” What followed were trial proceedings in which witnesses who received leniency if they agreed to provide testimony sought by the Hague prosecution to justify indictments made for political reasons. Thus, Momir Nikolic a prosecution witness in the Krstic trial was induced to say he supervised a massacre in Kravica until he admitted in cross examination that he not only lied by about supervising a massacre he never there and had no idea if one had occurred.

    “The relentless focus on Srebrenica by US officials in particular, serves to divert attention from the fact that both before, and after its capture, the US provided logistical support for large Croatian military attacks on ethnic Serbian civilians living in UN Protected Zones in Western Slavonia and the Krajina regions,” said Professor Ed Herman of the University of Pennsylvania who has analyzed media coverage of wartime events as co-editor with Phil Hammond of Degraded Capability: the Media and the Kosovo Crisis and as co-author with Noam Chomsky of Manufacturing Consent.

    The report of the Srebrenica Research Group quotes former NATO Deputy Commander General Charles Boyd who said that the Croatian attack on the Serbian enclave of Western Slavonia “appears to differ from Serbian actions around the UN safe areas of Srebrenica and Zepa only in the degree of Western hand-wringing and CNN footage the latter have elicited. Ethnic cleansing evokes condemnation only when it is committed by Serbs, not against them.”

    Former UN Civilian Affairs Coordinator Phillip Corwin, the senior UN civilian official in Bosnia at the time of the capture of Srebrenica read a statement noting the killing of non-combatants in the region “is a terrible crime and that perpetrators must be condemned” of such crimes regardless of the size of the crime and whether it is done by Serbs, Croats, or Muslims. Corwin, who authored a book about his experience in Bosnia called Dubious Mandate and wrote a foreword to the report of the Srebrenica Research Group added:

    “What happened in Srebrenica was not a single large massacre of Muslims by Serbs, but rather a series of very bloody attacks and counterattacks over a three-year period. Which reached a crescendo in July 1995. Moreover it is likely the the number of Muslim dead was probably no more than the number of Serbs that had been killed in Srebrenica and its environs in the three preceding years by Naser Oric and his predatory gangs. But my point here is not to argue equivalence, but to expose distortion.”

    “Because human rights are, by definition, universal, inflating the abuses by one side and minimizing such abuses by other factions in a brutal war serves neither truth nor reconciliation,” said filmmaker George Bogdanich, a member of the Srebrenica Research Group.

    Over a three-year period, the Srebrenica Research Group did extensive research to prepare its report, interviewing forensic experts, UN officials, military intelligence analysts, experts in international law, and reviewed all major official reports on Srebrenica, including those by the UN, ICTY, Dutch government, Human Rights Watch, and writings by all major participants in the Bosnian war.

    In addition to University of Pennsylvania Professor Ed Herman, the group includes former BBC journalist Jonathan Rooper, columnist George Szamuely, writer and filmmaker George Bogdanich, Dr. Philip Hammond, Dr. Milan Bulajic, Director of the Fund for Genocide Research, researchers David Peterson and Tim Fenton.

    Defense & Foreign Affairs is published by the International Strategic Studies Association (ISSA), Alexandria VA. Their website is

    Website of the Srebrenica Research Group is

  13. Good one Prenj….(NOT!)

    I got to hand it to you – I was just waiting for you to make such an Attila Hoare/Kamm style, ad hominem-labelling type jibe.

    Are any of the above people I listed above in the Srebrenica Research Group of Serbian descent, Prenj?

    Hmm… .Gee whiz, I don’t really know…(NOT!)

    Are they Freemasons? Are they Jews perhaps? Are they dentists? Maybe hairdressers? Are they Communists? Are they members of the Ku Klux Klun? Are they Used Car Salesmen? Are they Rotarians? Maybe Boy Scouts? Are they baby seal hunters? Are they whalers?

    Let’s assume for the sake of argument, that one or two of the people in the Srebrenica Research Group are indeed Serbs. Is it your esteemed “impartial”, “neutral”, “unbiased” opinion that if they are indeed Serbs, then that somehow automatically makes them liars and not to be trusted?Are ALL Serbs liars in your view?

    Answer me the following, Prenj:

    Is Marko Attila Hoare’s mother Branka Magas or not? Is Branka Magas Croatian or not? Is she perhaps an ultra-nationalist supporter of the late Franjo Tudjman and Stipe Mesic or not? Is she maybe a secret Ustasha supporter or not? Does she hate the Serbs or not?

    How about Mr. Attila Hoare himself? Does he hate the Serbs or not? Is Mr. Hoare biased against the Serbs because his mother is Croatian or not? Did he work and get PAID handsomely large sums of money by the NATO owned and funded ICTY Kangaroo Court in the Hague or not? Did he help in drawing up the bogus “indictment” of Milosevic for this NATO owned Kangaroo Court or not?

    I really don’t have a clue….(NOT!)

    Perhaps Prenj, you can enlighten me and answer all the questions above?

    By the way, I almost forgot to ask you – please don’t be coy or embarrased by this as I am of course NOT trying to imply anything untoward, so please don’t miscontrue this:

    Are you by any chance:

    A) Croatian?

    B) perhaps Bosnian Moslem (“Bosniak”)?

    C) Or are you possibly Albanian (either from Albania or Kosovo)?

    Of course, naturally being “impartial”, “neutral” and “unbiased”, just like you, I would NEVER assume by default that if you were either A, B, or C, that you would have ZERO credibility, now would I, Prenj?

  14. Labeling the Serbs as Nazis
    The Role of Ruder Finn, a US-Public Relations Firm

    The following is an extract of an interview conducted by Mr. Jacques Merlino (Deputy Director of the network TV2, Paris, France) with James Harff (Director of Ruder Finns’s Global Public affairs section), which took place in October 1993.

    HARFF: For eighteen months we have been working for the Republic of Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, as well as for the opposition in Kosovo. Throughout this period, we had many successes, giving us a formidable international image. We intend to take advantage of this and develop commercial agreements with these countries. Speed is vital, because items favourable to us must be settled in public opinion. The first statement counts. The retractions have no effect.

    MERLINO: What are your methods of operation?

    HARFF: The essential tools in our work are a card file, a computer and a fax. The card file contains a few hundred names of journalists, politicians, academics, and representatives of humanitarian organizations. The computer goes through the card files according to correlated subjects, coming up with a very effective targets. The computer is tied into a fax. In this way we can disseminate information in a few minutes to those we thinkill react (positively). Our job is to assure that the arguments for our side will be the first to be expressed.

    MERLINO: How often do you intervene?

    HARFF: Quantity is not important. You have to intervene at the right time with the right person…

    MERLINO: What achievement were you most proud of?

    HARFF: To have managed to move the Jewish opinion to our side. This was extemely delicate, as the dossier involved a major danger. President Tudjman was too imprudent in his book, “Wastelands: Historical Truth.” A reading of his text could find him guilty of anti-semitism.

    In Bosnia, the situation was no better: President Izetbegovic, in his book, The Islamic Declaration,” strongly supported the creation of a fundamentalist Islamic state [in Bosnia]. Morover, the Croatian and Bosnian past was marked by a real and cruel anti-semitism. Tens of thousands of Jews perished in Croatian camps. So there was every reason for intellectuals and Jewish organizations to be hostile towards the Croats and Bosnians.

    Our challenge was to reverse this attitude. And we succeeded masterfully.

    At beginning of August 1992, the New York Newsday came but with he affair of (Serb) concentration camps. We jumped at the opportunity immediately. We outwitted three big Jewish organizations – B’Nai Brith Anti-Defamation League, the Jewish Committee, and the American Jewish Congress. We suggested to them to publish an advertisement in the New York Times and to organize demonstrations outside the U.N.

    This was a tremendous coup.

    When the Jewish organizations entered the game on the side of the (muslim) Bosnians, we could promptly equate the Serbs with the Nazis in the public mind.

    The dossier was a complex one. Nobody understood what was going on in (former) Yugoslavia. The great majority of Americans were probably asking themselves in which African country Bosnia was situated.

    But, by a single move, were were able to present a simple story of good guys and bad guys which would hereafter play itself. We won by targeting Jewish audience, the right target.

    Almost immediately there was a clear change of language in the press, with the use of words with high emotional content, such as “ethnic cleansing,” “concentration camps,” etc. which evoked inmates of Nazi Germany and the gas chambers of Auschwitz. The emotional change was so powerful that nobody could go against it…

    MERLINO: But when you did all this, between 2 and 5 of August 1992. you had no proof that what you said was true. You only had the two articles in Newsday.

    HARFF: Our work is not to verify information. We are not equipped for that. Our work is to accelerate the circulation of information favourable to us, to aim them at carefully chosen targets. We did not claim that there were death camps in Bosnia, we just made it know that Newsday claimed it.

    MERLINO: Are you aware that you took on a grave responsibility?

    HARFF: We are professionals. We had a job to do and we did it. We are not paid to moralize. And when the time comes to start a debate on all of this, we have a clear conscience.

    For, if you wish to prove that Serbs are in fact poor victims, go ahead, but you will be quite alone.”

    [From Les Verites Ne Sont Pas Toutes Bonnes A Dire (The Truth from Yugoslavia is not being Reported Honestly),
    by Jaqcues Merlino, published by Albin Michel Paris, 1993.]

    A Jewish-American perspective of the U.S./NATO bombing of Yugoslavia

    By Todd Emoff

    The Clinton administration is using the memory of the WWII Holocaust, the systematic destruction of the Jewish people, in an unseemly campaign to justify the utterly failed and illogical policy of bombing Yugoslavia into giving up it’s province of Kosovo.

    It is offensive and demeaning to the memory of those six million innocent Jews who died at the hands of the Nazis and Nazi sympathizers to use their deaths to incite war fever against the Serbs.

    Clinton/NATO have advanced this comparison to try to win over Jewish and general public sympathy for the bombing of the Serbian people into submission. They use the terrible images of the ethnic Albanian refugees–and this is a terrible tragedy (exacerbated by our bombing) that the refugees are enduring–as fodder for a propaganda campaign to tug at the heartstrings of Western public opinion by invoking the memory of the Holocaust. Why?

    Because the awful bombing and killing of the Serbian people is in no way in the national interest of the U.S.

    Therefore, another justification must be presented to justify the horrific death and destruction caused by our bombs. Comparing the Serbs to the WWII Nazis and using the desperate images of the Albanian refugees is the only way to get public opinion to support the war. Without this, support for the war collapses totally.

    Regrettably, the Clinton spin machine (unquestionably the best spin machine in the world since TV was invented) has had some success in using the Jewish Holocaust to evoke an emotional response from people in NATO countries, enabling the populations of these countries to tolerate what the majority of these populations would not normally tolerate.

    They tolerate the indiscriminate killing of Yugoslav men, women and children, including cluster bombing of civilian areas of cities. They tolerate widespread destruction of the economic infrastructure of an entire country. All in the name of stopping another Holocaust. There is only one problem. Comparisons of the current situation to the Holocaust are not valid. The facts do not support such comparisons.

    Here are three of the many major differences between then and now:

    1) In Germany in the 1930’s there was no armed Jewish group that went about killing German police, funding itself with profits from drug dealing operations, or accepting weapons from outside powers to fight German authorities. There was no terrorist JLA. Jews were simply everyday law-abiding citizens.

    In contrast, the KLA has been killing and terrorizing the Serbs of Kosovo for over 6 years now. Many ethnic Albanians have also been killed by the KLA during this period, especially those that work in Government jobs like the forest service or the post office.

    They are killed to be “examples” and a warning not to work in any capacity that could be seen as conducive to maintaining Yugoslav control of the province. All Western countries, including the U.S., are on record acknowledging that the KLA is a terrorist organization.

    2) The Jews in pre-war Germany were not demanding to have a designated area comprising about 10% of the land of Germany designated as an autonomous region for the Jews in preparation for slicing off that portion of Germany as an independent Jewish country. The U.S./NATO demand on Serbia is that they allow in foreign armies to ensure that the ethnic Albanians are given autonomy for 3 years, and be allowed independence at the end of that period.

    3) German policy in the early 1940’s was the total annihilation of a whole people, throughout Europe (and the world, if possible). All Jews were to be found and killed.

    Trainloads were sent to factories of death. In the death camps, medical experiments without anesthesia were performed on them, they were worked to death, they were systematically and methodically killed by various methods including mass gassings with zyklon B. Killed by the thousands, by the tens of thousands, ultimately adding up to the millions. This was genocide.

    What is happening to the ethnic Albanians today in Kosovo is not genocide. The human misery of the ethnic Albanians is awful, the death and destruction there is to be condemned, but it is not of the scale, scope or intent as the genocide that was the Holocaust.

    There are 200,000 ethnic Albanians living securely and comfortably (as comfortably as possible under NATO bombing) in the Belgrade/northern Serbia area today.

    If it were genocide you would not find this to be the case.

    Even if you accept as fact that the 800,000 refugees were forced out by the Serbs (other reasons for leaving include heavy bombing of Kosovo by NATO, lack of water and food in the province, forced conscription by the KLA, the prospect of being in a hellish killing zone should NATO invasion occur) they are still alive. They were not put into mass death camps and exterminated. It is a grotesque distortion of the truth to compare the experience of the ethnic Albanians to that of the Jews in WWII.

    The only similarity between the current situation in Kosovo and the Jewish Holocaust is that it shows that there are still mean, brutal people in the world. This applies equally to KLA terrorists, Serb paramilitaries, U.S. cluster-bombers (those that order, approve or condone the use of anti-personnel bombs in cities), Croatian neo-Nazi groups, and dozens of other groups worldwide that are motivated by hate. Obviously, mankind is still not fully civilized.

    There is another reason that use of the Jewish Holocaust to drum up support for bombing and killing the Yugoslav people is abhorrent to Jews.

    It is well-known historical fact that during WWII Serbian Jews were sheltered and protected by the Serb population from the Nazis to the extent possible. This was unique among East-European Nazi occupied countries. Jews were hidden, fed, and housed by Serbs. Serbians “married” Jewish people that they didn’t even know in arranged marriages to save the new “spouse” from a trip to the death camps. Jews were accepted into Serbian resistance units. Jews and Serbs were killed together in the death camp at Jasenovac, and died side by side fighting in the resistance groups against the Nazis.

    In the quintessential irony of this insane bombing campaign, one of the architects of the raining of death on the Serbs is Madeleine Albright.

    Albright was born Jewish, her family fled Prague in 1939 ahead of the Nazi invasion and went to live in Belgrade. In 1941 the Nazis invaded and conquered Yugoslavia and 5 year-old Madeleine was sheltered for 6 weeks by – yes – a Serb family! She and her family were then smuggled out to London. Because of the Serbs little Madeleine lived, eventually became an American, and culminates her career by killing Serbs by the hundreds, no, by the thousands in the name of NATO and the Holocaust. Incredible.

    In contrast to the Serb behavior vis–vis the Jews, the Albanians formed two SS divisions under the Nazis. One of these, the infamous 21st Waffen SS “Skanderbeg” division (composed mostly of Gheg Albanians from Kosovo and northern Albania) spent the latter stages of the war hunting down Jews to be killed at Jasenovac(Croatia), and committing mass killings of Serbs.

    The Jewish people owe a huge debt to the Serbian people for their actions in helping us during that time.

    How can we repay such acts? By standing up for them today and doing what we can to stop this sickening bombing campaign by U.S./NATO. Calling, writing, and meeting with our Congresspeople, Senators, and the media, educating them to the truth of the situation.

    Many Serbs risked (and sometimes lost) their lives helping us. We need do nothing so dangerous or costly to pay them back. Making a few dozen phone calls, writing a few letters, and scheduling a few meetings with our elected representatives and opinion makers is the least we can do to help them now.

    We must explain to them that blowing up Yugoslavia, ruining it’s ecology, and killing it’s people is not helpful for any of the ethnic groups that live there. Thousands of Jewish people live in Yugoslavia, 4000 in Belgrade alone. I wonder how they are faring as their businesses, schools and neighborhoods are bombed and their children terrorized.

    We must stop our tax dollars from being used to kill the Yugoslavs and destroy their country. The idea that the United States of America should kill the Serbs, kill the Serbs, and then kill more Serbs (and some Albanians, Gypsies, Jews, Hungarians, Croats, and others living in Yugoslavia along the way) until they let us administer part of their country is morally bankrupt.

    In our darkest hour the Serbs were there for the Jews. Now it is their darkest hour. We should be there for them.

    Above all, we must reverse the hijacking of our Holocaust. We should not allow our Holocaust to be twisted by the Clinton spinmeisters into the reason that we are killing men, women, and children in Serbia or anywhere else.

    We must take the Jewish Holocaust back from them and proclaim, loudly, that the memory of the six million is not to be used for this purpose. Ever. This is our responsibility. We cannot shirk it.
    For comments write to Todd Emoff at

  16. Excellent work Josh!

    Felix, did you know that Attila Hoare to this day still refers to the former UN protected area of Krajina – where Serbs had lived since the early 1400’s, which is more than 350 years BEFORE the founding of the great American republic in 1776 – Attila Hoare calls this former Serb province:

    “the Serb-OCCUPIED territories in Croatia”?!

    Over 500,000 Krajina Serbs were brutally expelled and over 20,000 murdered from 1991 to 1995 by Tudjman and Mesic in a replay of Croatian Ustasha Nazi actions from 1941.Why does Attila Hoare NOT condemn this??

    Did you know that Attila Hoare defends the Ustasha Nazi type ethnic cleansing of over 300,000 Serbs – perpetrated by the late Franjo Tudjman and his henchman Stipe Mesic, on August 4, 1995? Attila Hoare still to this day defends this barbaric ethnic cleansing campaign by calling it:

    “the LIBERATION of Serb-occupied territories in Croatia”?!

    Can you believe the nerve of this man, Attila Hoare brazenly lying through his teeth like that in support of Nazi type ethnic cleansing? Can you believe the audacity of this revisionist “historian” masquerading as a “scholar” (as Josh pointed out in his previous comments here) defending ethnic cleansing and genocide?!

    Of course one can understand Hoare’s defense of this massive genocidal crime: because it was perpetrated AGAINST the Serbs by Croatians – and as Josh pointed out (good work Josh!) – Attila Hoare’s mother is a Croat, whose name is Branka Magas, a (phony)”Marxist” and well known hater of the Serbs!

    Here is something worth pondering over. It is something Attila Hoare hopes you will never read. It is about the indisputable proven fact that the late Franjo Tudjman and his henchman Stipe Mesic both PLANNED the Nazi type expulsion and mass murder of the Krajina Serbs in 1990 – well over a full year BEFORE war broke out in the former Socialist Yugoslavia.

    The entire plan was filmed on videotape by the Yugoslav intelligence services in 1990.The following is a post from Scotsman Neil Craig’s “A Place to Stand” blog which he published in late January, 2006.

    It completely demolishes Hoare’s and Kamm’s pro-imperialist propaganda drivel about the Serbs and Milosevic wanting a “Greater Serbia” and the entire false Balkan history disseminated by the pro-Tudjman Ustasha Nazi/pro-Izetbegovic Islamofascist mob over at British website “Harry’s Place”.

    Here is the article from Neil Craig’s blog “A Place to Stand”:
    (I have added some additional paragraphs to Neil’s post from the original article by Andy Wilcoxson that Neil Craig excerpted from):

    Remember the last time the Milosevic trial was mentioned in the papers? When the prosecutor introduced a video of Serb “scorpions” shooting a prisoner “proving” at Srebrenica proving that the massacre of 7,000/8,000/10,000/11,000 Moslem soldiers was true. Except, of course that it wasn’t introduced by the prosecution as evidence because that would mean that Milosevic would have been able to examine it & point out such non-credible facts as that the participants managed to give their dialogue with different lip movements, that it was ultimately admitted not to have happened near Srebrenica & that it did absolutely nothing to link Milosevic to anything.

    Another video has been introduced by Milosevic & I am guessing that [British journalist] Trevor McDonald isn’t going to be devoting a full programme to it as he did with the doctored one. I’m betting he isn’t going to do 1/10th.

    Of course it might turn out that that he isn’t a racist Nazi bastard & does report it – anybody want to bet? Not a single enemy prisoner shot (no army can ever claim that they have not done something like that, even the “liberators” of Iraq) but the leaders of our Croatian allies deliberately planning genocide.

    It is impossible to conceive, now that Tudjman is dead, of any more convinciing proof of what our allies were. A written confession from Tudjman wouldn’t do because it could be fake, a confession from all his henchcreatures wouldn’t because that wouldn’t prove he hadn’t known about it but only “accidentally” been involved in genocide.

    A confession from Clinton or Kohl would only prove their guilt. This is as absolute a piece of proof as is even theoretically possible & you will see that the Nazis will just censor all reporting of it here – & will do so easily.
    The majority of Kostic’s testimony dealt with the outbreak of war in Yugoslavia, specifically in Croatia, during 1991.

    According to intelligence that he received while he was a member of the SFRY presidency. Tudjman’s government was arming members of the HDZ and calling them “the police”. He said that the number of so-called “police” in Croatia jumped from 17,000 to 92,000 over a two-month period during 1991.

    He said that Croatia was establishing illegal paramilitary formations in order to attack the JNA and ethnically cleanse Croatia of its Serbian population. He testified that the weapons Croatia received were being smuggled in from Hungary.

    To bear this point out he read passages from Stepjan Mesic’s book, which was originally entitled, “How I Broke-Up Yugoslavia.” Mesic, at the suggestion of Genscher, later changed the title to “How Yugoslavia Broke Up.”

    But in his book he openly discusses how he allowed Croatian paramilitaries to illegally seize weapons from JNA warehouses and how he let them attack the JNA at the time that he was a member of the SFRY presidency.

    To further bear this point out, Milosevic played an explosive videotape that had been filmed by the 12th detachment of the Yugoslav Army’s counterintelligence service (KOS).

    The video, filmed in 1990 and broadcast on Yugoslav TV in January 1991, showed a conversation between Tudjman’s defense Minister Martin Spegelj and his Interior Minister Josip Boljkovac.

    The two men are seen discussing preparations for war with the JNA. They discuss the importation of weapons from Hungary and how they will murder JNA soldiers and their families. Spegelj says “We will kill them on their doorstep. No one will be allowed to reach the barracks alive.”

    Spegelj and Boljkovac agreed that killing women and children was OK. They discuss how grenades should be thrown into the family homes of JNA servicemen and that “no concern should be given to killing women and children.”

    Boljkovac discusses how JNA servicemen will be murdered in their barracks. He says, “shove a pistol in their stomach — one shot and that will be the end of them.”

    The two men also discuss their plans to deal with the Serbian population. They discuss how they will destroy Knin and Spegelj boasts, “Knin will never be Knin again. Serbs will never be in Croatia when we’ve finished.”

    Mind you this was all filmed in 1990 – BEFORE the war broke out and BEFORE the establishment of the Republic of Serbian Krajina (RSK).

    As an American I found it particularly disturbing to see Spegelj and Boljkovac discussing the support they were receiving from the U.S. Government. They discussed how, the day after Milosevic was elected in Serbia, the U.S. Government contacted them to offer combat vehicles and assorted military equipment.

    This video proves beyond any doubt that the Serbian war objective in Croatia was self-defense. In light of this sort of material, any theories offered by the prosecution about “greater Serbia,” or Serb “aggression” against Croatia are exposed as pure nonsense. The Krajina Serbs had to go to war – they had no choice – the video makes it clear that Croatia was planning to finish what it started during World War II.

    Professor Kostic was visibly shaken by the videotape, he said that it brought back a lot of bad memories. He explained how Franjo Tudjman practiced holocaust denial during his election campaign. He said that Tudjman had denied the mass killings at the Jasenovac concentration camp during World War II.

    It is worth noting that Tudjman wrote a book called “Impasses of Historical Reality” where he claims that the Jews controlled the Nazi concentration camps. According to Tudjman the holocaust only killed one million Jews not the six million claimed by most historians.

    Kostic testified that Nazi émigrés were brought back to Croatia under Tudjman’s regime. Tudjman even appointed some of them to government posts.

    Milosevic had several videotapes that he played. One of the videotapes showed an interview with Franjo Tudjman where he defends the World War II era Independent State of Croatia (NDH) as “an expression of the Croatian nation’s historic desire for an independent homeland.” Kostic commented on the video saying that the NDH was a Nazi satellite state during World War II.

    Kostic testified that the Croats could have seceded from Yugoslavia peacefully if they had acted within the law and observed the constitution. He said that Croatia opted for war so that it would have an excuse to ethnically cleanse the Serbian population.

    Kostic spent the last part of the day testifying about a 1991 initiative of the SFRY supreme defense counsel to declare a state of emergency that would have allowed the Yugoslav Peoples Army to effectively put down secessionist paramilitary groups and prevent interethnic conflict from breaking out.

    Kostic testified that the presidency members from Bosnia, Croatia, Macedonia, and Slovenia opposed declaring a state of emergency, while Serbia, Montenegro, Kosovo, and Vojovodina supported declaring a state of emergency. Unfortunately, the vote was 4 to 4 so no state of emergency could be declared and the JNA was unable to act effectively.

    Milosevic asked Kostic about particular passages from the Croatian indictment. In the Croatia and Bosnia indictments it says: “In a televised address on 16 March 1991, Slobodan Milosevic, in his capacity as President of the Republic of Serbia, declared that Yugoslavia was finished and that Serbia would no longer be bound by decisions of the Federal Presidency.”

    Milosevic, who was armed with the text of the speech, had Kostic read the speech and comment on the indictment’s assertion.

    Kostic read out the the speech and it turns out that the indictment is wrong. Milosevic never said that Yugoslavia was finished or that Serbia wasn’t bound by the decisions of the presidency. All Milosevic did was criticize the presidency as being ineffective.

    Milosevic also asked questions about the indictment’s assertions about an incident at Pakrac. The indictment says, “The Serb police, headed by Milan Martic, took control of a police station in Pakrac and battles erupted when the Croatian government attempted to re-establish its authority in the area.”

    In fact these Serb police were the same police who had always worked at that police station. Prof. Kostic explained that Croatia attacked the police station when the Serbian officers were fired for refusing to wear the Ustasha’s checkerboard emblem on their caps.

    Prof. Kostic will continue his testimony when the trial resumes on Wednesday, February 1st.

    posted by neil craig @ 6:10 PM

    This one of the rare page I found on the internet, that is spreading the truth about former Yugoslavia.

    Keep on!

    Many regards,
    Jovanovic family, Obrenovac, Serbia
    # posted by Jovanovic : January 30, 2006

    ‘The first Minister of Interior Affairs in the HDZ Government, Martin Spegelj, was a senior general in the Yugoslav Armed Forces (JNA) at the time of the creation of the new Croatia. He said, on January 20, 1991, while the JNA was still officially the common army of Yugoslavia: “We are in the war with [ie: against] the Army (JNA). Should anything happen, kill them all in the streets, in their homes, through hand grenades, fire pistols in their bellies, women, children . . . We will deal with [the Croatian Serbian area of] Knin by butchering . . .”‘

    Have a look at what happened when,after the late Franjo Tudjman’s HDZ pro-Ustasha party was ousted from power in Croatia by Ivica Racan’s centre-left government in elections in 2000.

    One year after Ivica Racan’s Social Democratic Party of Croatia (SDP), attempted a ban on World War 2 Nazi Ustasha symbols in Croatia, Racan’s government was defeated, and the late Franjo Tudjman’s pro-Ustasha HDZ party was returned to power in December 2003, under Ivo Sanader.
    CROATIA: USTASA SYMBOLS BAN December 2, 2002 IWPR report

    Questions raised over government plans to crack down on those who glory in the country’s fascist past.

    By Drago Hedl in Osijek

    Moves by Ivica Racan’s centre-left government to outlaw iconography glorifying Croatia’s Second World War fascists are seen in many quarters as a cynical attempt to smooth Croatia’s passage into the European Union.

    Draft laws will soon be presented to the Croatian parliament forbidding the display of symbols of the Ustasa, the pro-Nazi movement that governed Croatia under Axis protection from 1941 to 1945.

    The proposed legislation is being presented as an attempt to combat a growing trend towards the public display of symbols and iconography lauding the bloodthirsty Nezavisna Drzava Hrvatska, NDH, and its dictator, or Poglavnik, Ante Pavelic.

    But if the bill becomes law, analysts believe that the authorities are unlikely to enforce it, as this would lead to an open conflict with the radical right.The government’s fear of such a clash has been very evident over its reluctance to extradite indicted Croatian army general Janko Bobetko whom nationalists consider a war hero.

    Recent years have seen monuments and statues put up to celebrate the lives of Ustasa military commanders and the publication of pictures of Pavelic taking the Nazi salute. Ustasa songs are once more heard in sports stadiums and at pop concerts while market stalls sell a plethora of Ustasa T-shirts, badges, cigarette lighters and other NDH “souvenirs”.

    Such behaviour is to be outlawed by the proposed legislation – nicknamed the “law on de-Ustasa-ization” – which bans all acts or sale of merchandise “celebrating former fascist states or organisations”.

    Offenders caught publicly displaying “flags, badges, clothes, slogans, ways of salutation and other insignia of former fascist states” will be liable to the payment of fines and in more serious cases to jail terms of up to three years.

    But even before the discussion has begun in parliament, the proposal has ignited a public furore, drawing criticism from legal specialists and right-wing politicians.

    The former say it will be hard to put it into practice: that it will be virtually impossible to punish the hundreds of youngsters who turn up at pop concerts in black T-shirts decorated with the Ustasa “U” sign, let alone the thousands of football fans who sing Ustasa songs in the
    stands; and that attempts to prosecute offenders could trigger public demonstrations in support of Ustasa ideology.

    Hard line right-wingers, meanwhile, have predictably countered with a demand for similar penalties for the display of Partisan and Communist symbols, such as the five-pointed star, the hammer-and-sickle and the singing of anti-fascist songs.

    “These complaints are ridiculous,” a well-known Zagreb intellectual,who wished to remain anonymous, told IWPR. “No one today in Croatia
    publicly displays the five-pointed star or the hammer-and-sickle,whereas there is a real flood of Ustasa symbols.”

    The centre-left government of prime minister Ivica Racan says the proposed law is based on the preamble to the Croatian constitution, which condemns the former NDH, and also mirrors the German penal code,which outlaws pro-Nazi demonstrations.

    It says it was a response to appeals from human rights groups,various intellectual forums and independent media groups critical of the “re-Ustasa-ization” of Croatia under the government of former president Franjo Tudjman.

    Tudjman’s own position was, in fact, ambivalent. Though he fought against the NDH as a young man, as president he sometimes defended its legitimacy, describing Pavelic’s Croatia as “not just a quisling creation, but also an expression of the centuries-old desire of the Croatian people for their own state”.

    Mirjana Kasapovic, professor of political sciences at the University of Zagreb, said the Communists vainly attempted to “de-Ustasa-ise” Croatia after the Second World War, attributing their failure to the fact that they merely replaced one undemocratic regime with another.

    Analysts say the proposed legislation is little more than a
    cynical attempt by ministers to bolster their bid for European Union membership, as there’s little evidence that they’re prepared to take on the country’s resurgent right-wingers.

    Drago Hedl is a regular Osijek-based IWPR contributor.

    [ IWPR – “Institute for War & Peace Reporting” is a stridently anti-Serbian “NGO” funded & promoted by ruthless billionaire currency speculator and convicted insider-trader criminal, George Soros – so this report should have been widely reported by the “mainstream” media, but WASN’T.

    See the article below at ]

    # posted by Peter Robert North : January 30, 2006

  17. Josh, since you are highly critical towards various international organizations (UN, ICTY, ICRC, …) labeling them all as NATO controlled sources, one would expect to see the same level of criticism towards sources supporting Serbs.
    That’s why I asked the question about Srebrenica Research Group that has been lavishly sponsored by the Serbian government.
    Fellows, independent, unbiased researchers you are not.

  18. Prenj, you have failed to answer even ONE of my questions I asked of you in my previous postings on this thread. I think that speaks volumes in itself.

    You write:

    “…Srebrenica Research Group that has been lavishly sponsored by the Serbian government.”

    Prenj STOP lying and making stuff up on this thread as you go along. You know as well as I do that your claim is totally preposterous and without any foundation at all. I challenge you to provide ONE independent piece of proof for your ridiculous claim.

    Funny how you have absolutely NO qualms – no problem whatsoever with the indisputable proven fact that the Hague ICTY is *OWNED* and *CONTROLLED* by NATO and the US government whom were INTERESTED PARTIES TO THE CONFLICT, and yet here you are making stuff up about the SRG being “lavishly sponsored by the Serbian government”. That alone speaks volumes about your supposedly “neutral”, “independent” and “unbiased” disingenuous postings here.

    You write the following:

    “Josh, since you are highly critical towards various international organizations (UN, ICTY, ICRC, …) labeling them all as NATO controlled sources…”

    I NEVER wrote anywhere on this thread that the ICRC or the UN per se is a “NATO controlled source”. So stop engaging in a disingenuous Kamm/Hoare style “Straw Man” argument.

    Prenj, too bad you are so badly mis-informed on this issue: it is NOT me or Max Rosenthal or Nathan Pearlstein or Felix Quigley or anybody else on 4International that is *”labelling”* the Hague ICTY Kangaroo Court as a “NATO controlled source”.

    It is NATO and the US government *ITSELF* that has repeatedly BOASTED that the Hague ICTY is *OWNED* and *CONTROLLED* by them!

    Prenj, if you had even bothered to read ANYTHING that I or Max Rosenthal have posted from *US/NATO SOURCES themselves* (and NOT “Serbian government sources” as you so ludicrously claim), you would have seen the *BOASTS* of US and NATO officials Madeleine Albright, Richard Holbrooke and Jamie Shea that the Hague ICTY Kangaroo Court is *OWNED* and *CONTROLLED* by them!

    On the issue of NATO’s control and funding of the Hague Tribunal, one can hardly do better than show NATO admitting it all:

    “Official Statements Prove Hague ‘Tribunal’ Belongs To NATO”

    and here:

    “The Hague Tribunal’s Final Body Count In Kosovo Was Embarrassingly Low: The Guardian covers up for NATO, and yet revealingly neglects one argument.”

    Historical and Investigative Research – 4 Dec 2005
    by Francisco Gil-White

    Prenj, answer me these questions:

    Is it true or not that NATO and the US government under Clinton/Albright BOMBED Serbia for 79 days and thus was *NOT* in any way a so-called “neutral”, “disinterested”, “impartial” or “unbiased” “observer” to the conflict?

    Is it true or not that NATO and the US government ARMED, FUNDED and TRAINED the al Qaeda, Saudi & Iranian backed Islamofascist Albanian KLA terrorist army, Izetbegovic’s *self-confessed* Islamofascist SDA party and Tudjman’s *self-confessed* antisemitic Croatian Ustasha Nazi HDZ party whom ALL had stated OPENLY their avowedly anti-Serbian genocidal intentions in PUBLIC to EXPEL and MURDER the Christian Orthodox Serbs from Kosovo, Bosnia and the province of Krajina?

    Are you DENYING all of this Prenj? Yes or no?

    “…one would expect to see the same level of criticism towards sources supporting Serbs.”

    We criticize *ALL* lies and disinformation no matter where it is coming from. If those researchers whom write the TRUTH with reams of supporting *documented* evidence to back their arguments up are pejoratively labelled by you as “sources supporting the Serbs”, then it is up to YOU to *disprove* such sources and NOT us, since YOU are the one trying to make the case in support of NATO/US governments, Izetbegovic, Tudjman and the Thaci/Ceku/Haradinaj led KLA.

    Prenj, it is clearly NOT enough for you to ASSERT and CLAIM that the researchers whom we quote are ALL lying or “lavishly sponsored by the “Serbian government”. It is up to YOU to prove *your* case and provide hard evidence and documentation to support *your* position in favor of the Izetbegovic, Tudjman, KLA and US/NATO government sponsored narrative.

    This you clearly have NOT done.

    So Prenj, please don’t try to pretend that you have made your case or imply that you are “neutral” “unbiased”, “impartial” or “independent” on this matter.

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