TO UNDERSTAND THIS GEORGIA ATTACK ON OSSETIA STUDY ELIZABETH JONES

by Felix Quigley

August 10, 2008

Anti-Georgia rally in South Ossetia, June 2004 

protestors against Georgian troops in south Osettia

Very predictably, the editor of Israpundit Ted Balman and his very strange friend there called Yamit82, have attacked me personally in order to distort the real position (http://www.israpundit.com/2008/?p=1777#comments) which we hold over the cowardly Georgian attack on South Ossetia, an attack which looks like the beginnings of war on Russia and China. Along with JoshR and Neil Craig of A Place to Stand () I also heard yesterday morning the same BBC reporter state clearly that Georgia had attacked first in an opportunist fashion when Putin was at the Olympics, and when the world was distracted by the opening of the Olympics.

This is not a time for throwing insults about. The disagreement which we have with Belman and Yamit82 is not personal but is rooted in how we see the role of US Imperialism in the world today.

People like Belman and Yamit82 do not distinguish between US Imperialism (the US ruling class or as some say “elites”) and the ordinary people of America. This is a fatal position to take. It means in the end aligning with the US Imperialists class (say Bush) and possibly perhaps inevitably by some strands against the Jews of Israel and their true compatriots the 60 million strong US Christian Evangelicals. The latter is not of course the position of Belman but without clarity on this issue it can lead there.

Is it possible that such a harmless sounding disagreement could lead to those drastic ends. I am afraid so. History is full of items like this, when disagreements may seem small but actually grow into great issues.

We have seen often on Israpundit Yamit82 attacking these Christian allies of the Jews. There have been many atacks on the American Evangelicals led by Hagee, even as Hagee was doing everything in his power to show he was a friend of Israel.

Now this position can quite easily grow into a support for US leaders against these Evangelical Christians. The basic political position of the Christian Evangelicals of America in supporting Israel as a vital part of their spiritual and political being is leading them along the road of combat with their own President, whether that President be Republican or Democrat, when that President lines up with Arab oil and with Islam against the existence of Israel.

Of course some may say “Poor little Georgia” etc, and I say “Poor them”. I pity them because they are just operating with emotion and are basically ignorant. It is necessary to study the real role of the Imperialists, especially British and US Imperialists, as they drive to war agains their competitors.

So it is vital to understand the role of the US Imperialists especially towards Asia, and why it sees India, China and Russia as its main enemies in this regard. This is also the only way to understand the continuous attacks on Yugoslavia from 1980 to the present which the US led, and also explains why the US has got no difficulty at all in being the ally of Islam when it suits them.

Some time ago Jared Israel of Emperors New Clothes was very much on the ball as regards US interests in Asia and I recall that he drew attention to some very important comments by an American lady which went almost unnoticed.

Her name was Elizabeth Jones and she was a high up official in the US State Department.

4international has pleasure in reproducing her words. They are an eye-opener and lead to a better understanding of what lies behind the actions of US satellite Georgia. Remember Georgia does not act alone. Can this be a repeat of a Srebrenica style haox!

[begin quote here]

14-12-01 Text: Assistant Secretary of State Jones on U.S.Policy in Central AsiaU.S. policy in Central Asia must include a commitment to “deeper, more sustained, and better-coordinated engagement on the full range of issues upon which we agree and disagree” — including security cooperation, energy and political and economic reform — Assistant Secretary of State Elizabeth Jones told the new Senate Subcommittee on Central Asia and the Caucasus December 13.Jones, who heads the State Department’s Bureau of European and Eurasian Affairs, provided an historical overview of Central Asia, described the U.S. “vision” for the region, and reported on Secretary of State Colin Powell’s recent visit there.

She said the United States is engaging with Central Asia “seriously and for the long term.” The fact that the Senate created a special subcommittee for Central Asian affairs “testifies to the importance that the United States now accords to this part of the world.”

Jones said the United States hopes to see a stable, peaceful and prosperous region where individual countries “markedly accelerate their economic reforms and democratic credentials, respect human rights, and develop vibrant civil societies.” This vision of Central Asia, she said, sees an increasing integration into the global economy “via an east-west corridor of cooperation stretching from China and Afghanistan across the Caucasus to the Mediterranean.” (my emphasis…FQ)

U.S. support will require resources tailored to each of the five countries in the region, Jones said: “Uzbekistan has asked for guidance and support in its dealings with the International Monetary Fund and other international financial organizations. Kazakhstan needs more foreign investment and support for local private-sector development. Turkmenistan may need support for the development of grass roots organizations. Kyrgyzstan needs help with its debt burden. Tajikistan, the poorest state in the region and still recovering from civil war and drought, will need a broad range of humanitarian, economic, and political assistance.”

“We are ready to explore new areas of assistance for all five states, but only in exchange for demonstrated, concrete steps toward reform,” Jones told the subcommittee.

Jones called Secretary Powell’s recent trip to Central Asia a “rousing success,” although inclement weather prevented him from stopping in the Kyrgyz Republic — he was only able to speak with Kyrgyz President Askar Akayev by telephone.

She said the primary purpose of the trip was to express U.S. appreciation for the support provided by the Central Asian countries in the international anti-terrorism campaign. Powell also explored the “full range of cooperation” including the development of genuine pluralism and democracy, rule of law, humanitarian relief, Caspian energy, human rights, and economic reform.

“The stakes are undeniably high in Central Asia,” Jones said. “In what only a decade ago was the Soviet Union, the United States now has thousands of U.S. military personnel working alongside their Central Asian counterparts. We rely on these governments for the security and well-being of our troops, and for vital intelligence that has helped us to conduct such an effective military campaign in Afghanistan.” (my emphasis…FQ)

She described a range of U.S.-supported programs designed to promote human rights, democracy, and economic development in Central Asia, and said these programs “are every bit as important as our security assistance in dealing with the long-term root causes of terrorism.”

Following is the text of Jones’ statement to the Senate subcommittee, as prepared for delivery:

(begin text)

U.S.-CENTRAL ASIAN COOPERATION

A. Elizabeth Jones, Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs

Subcommittee on Central Asia and the Caucasus
Foreign Relations Committee
U.S. Senate
December 13, 2001

Mr. Chairman, distinguished members of the Subcommittee, it is a distinct honor and privilege to be the first Administration official to testify before this new Subcommittee of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. The very fact that it was created testifies to the importance that the United States now accords to this part of the world. I want to report to you about Secretary Powell’s visit to Central Asia over this past weekend, and discuss with you the general issues of our rapidly evolving cooperation with the five frontline states. (my emphasis…FQ) But first, I would like to give you a bit of context for what makes this important part of the world unique.

Background

The five countries of Central Asia emerged only a decade ago from the debris of the Soviet Union. While their ambitions are Western they have far more in common with their Asian neighbors than with traditional Europe. To the West, Central Asia for centuries has been one of the most inaccessible and least understood parts of the world. In the Middle Ages, great Islamic theologians, philosophers, scientists, and artists were born, flourished, and were buried in Central Asia, mostly in modern-day Uzbekistan. Their scholarship deeply influenced the Renaissance in Europe. (my emphasis…FQ)

By the late 19th century, however, these squabbling and despotic warlords became vulnerable to colonization by the Russian Empire. At the turn of the 20th century, the Soviet Empire clamped this region in the vise (sic) of Stalinism. I do not excuse the current problems and irritants in Central Asia. But when we become impatient, we need to remember the Region’s 20th-century history. Major transitions in the basic nature of these regimes may require generational change. We need to be patient and continue to push for reform where it is possible.

We have a vision for this region – that it become stable, peaceful, and prosperous. We have a vision that the individual countries will markedly accelerate their economic reforms and democratic credentials, respect human rights, and develop vibrant civil societies. We have a vision that the countries of this region are increasingly integrated into the global economy via an east-west corridor of cooperation stretching from China and Afghanistan across the Caucasus to the Mediterranean. (my emphasis…FQ) We share this vision with the well-educated, ambitious, hard-working people of these new countries. We are engaging — seriously and for the long term — with Central Asia.

The Secretary’s Visit

Our readiness to engage more intensively was the message that Secretary Powell carried to the region last weekend. Of course, a primary purpose of his visit was to express American appreciation for the Central Asian countries’ ongoing critical support for Operation Enduring Freedom. While concentrating on the war effort, however, he explored the full range of cooperation, including the development of genuine pluralism and democracy, rule of law, humanitarian relief, Caspian energy, human rights and economic reform.

The Secretary began in Uzbekistan, the most populous Central Asian state. In his meetings with President Karimov, Foreign Minister Kamilov and Defense Minister Gulamov, the Secretary discussed Uzbekistan’s role in the war on terrorism, the political future of Afghanistan, and the continued importance of human rights and economic reform. During the Secretary’s visit, President Karimov took the important step of announcing the opening of the Friendship Bridge between Uzbekistan and Afghanistan that we expect will soon serve as a critical corridor for humanitarian relief supplies. The Secretary also took the time to meet with an Uzbek NGO emphasizing the importance he places on the development of civil society. I will follow up on the Secretary’s visit with a trip to Tashkent early next year to co-chair the U.S.-Uzbekistan Joint Security Cooperation Consultations. These discussions are intended to define in greater detail the contours of our new and intensified relationship.

The Secretary’s second stop was to be the Kyrgyz Republic, but nature intervened. Heavy snowfall in Bishkek prevented the Secretary’s plane from landing. He did have a long telephone call with President Akayev in which they discussed further counterterrorism cooperation and progress on Kyrgyz efforts to promote further democratic reform. Facing daunting obstacles, the Kyrgyz leadership early on embraced democratic and economic reforms. After backsliding, the country is returning to the road to reform.

The Secretary’s final stop in Central Asia was Kazakhstan, the state with the largest territory and the most economic potential in the region. Stable, multi-ethnic, and nuclear-free, Kazakhstan is likely to become one of the top five oil producers in the world by 2010. The European Bank for Reconstruction and Development judged it the leading economic reformer of the former Soviet Union. U.S. investment exceeds $5 billion [$5,000 million], and is growing.

The Secretary’s talks with President Nazarbayev and Foreign Minister Idrisov focused on the need for further competition and transparency in energy development, deeper development of democracy and respect for human rights, and Kazakhstan’s potential role in Afghan reconstruction. The Secretary also discussed with President Nazarbayev his visit to Washington later this month.

While in Astana, he met with members of the American Chamber of Commerce to reinforce the message that we are working with Central Asian governments to make sure that the region is a profitable place for U.S. business and investment. (my emphasis…FQ)

Our New Vision for Central Asia

Secretary Powell’s visit to the region was a rousing success. He received a gratifying level of support and cooperation from our Central Asian partners. This is yet another sign of how the world has changed after September 11. And it underlines that our foreign policy must evolve to keep pace with this change. The stakes are undeniably high in Central Asia. In what only a decade ago was the Soviet Union, the United States now has thousands of U.S. military personnel working alongside their Central Asian counterparts. We rely on these governments for the security and well-being of our troops, and for vital intelligence that has helped us to conduct such an effective military campaign in Afghanistan. (my emphasis…FQ)

The frontline states of the region provide a critical humanitarian corridor for food and emergency supplies that may save the lives of millions of people living in northern Afghanistan this winter. We will want the rising tide of reconstruction in Afghanistan to lift the Central Asian boats, too. We would like to see post-war reconstruction supplies and materials purchased, to the extent possible, in neighboring countries to buoy their economies.

Our country is now linked with this region in ways we could never have imagined before September 11. Our policy in Central Asia must include a commitment to deeper, more sustained, and better-coordinated engagement on the full range of issues upon which we agree and disagree. These include security cooperation, energy, and internal strengthening of these countries through political and economic reform. President Bush has invited both the presidents of Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan to Washington in the coming months as the centerpiece of this intensified engagement.

We have told the leaders of these countries that America will not forget in the future those who stand by us now. After this conflict is over, we will not abandon Central Asia. We are committed to providing the resources, the high-level attention, and the multinational coordination to support reform opportunities. We want to stand by the Central Asian countries in their struggle to reform their societies in the same way they have stood by us in the war on terrorism. This is not only a new relationship, but a long-term relationship.

This will require resources that must be tailored to each country. Uzbekistan has asked for guidance and support in its dealings with the International Monetary Fund and other international financial organizations. Kazakhstan needs more foreign investment and support for local private-sector development. Turkmenistan may need support for the development of grass roots organizations. Kyrgyzstan needs help with its debt burden. Tajikistan, the poorest state in the region and still recovering from civil war and drought, will need a broad range of humanitarian, economic, and political assistance. In all five countries, we need to expand our ongoing support for democratic political institutions, local non-governmental organizations, and independent media. We are ready to explore new areas of assistance for all five states, but only in exchange for demonstrated, concrete steps toward reform.

Promoting reform in Central Asia has not been easy. Today we are concentrating much of our assistance on programs that seek to educate and inspire the next generation of leaders in the region. You know these initiatives well. They include the high school-level FLEX program, Freedom Support Act program at the university level, and the graduate-level Muskie program. Further, the IREX exchange program targets young professionals, and the Peace Corps has a broad range of programs for the next generation. These programs look to the future by concentrating on the successor generations, and they are an integral part of our long-term commitment to Central Asia.

Promoting Longer-Term U.S. Interests

In addition to wanting these countries to become stable and prosperous, we have three significant U.S. national interests in the region: preventing the spread of terrorism, providing tools for political and economic reform and institution of the rule of law, and ensuring the security and transparent development of Caspian energy reserves.

The terrorist threat emanating from Afghanistan reinforces our view that underdevelopment and repressive, anti-democratic regimes provide conditions that terrorists and other extremists exploit. We have been working on counterterrorism with states in the region, but we must do more in parallel with our emphasis on respect for human rights. Since the announcement of the Central Asian Border Security Initiative in April 2000, the USG has committed $70 million for customs and border-guard training, anti-terrorism assistance, and communication, observation and detection equipment. These programs have been well-received. They have developed the basis for cooperation upon which we have built our current joint efforts in Operation Enduring Freedom. But I want to emphasize that our many efforts at promoting human rights, democracy and economic development are every bit as important as our security assistance in dealing with the long-term root causes of terrorism.

An inextricable component of a more secure and prosperous Central Asia is an investment and legal climate that will both fuel local economic development and protect the interests of U.S. traders and investors. Property rights, privatization, due process, rule of law, currency convertibility, bank and tax reform all contribute to the security of investments and individuals in Central Asia — the foundation of a stable economy and just society. We are investing heavily in efforts to promote this kind of reform throughout the region.

Development of the vast Caspian energy reserves and their reliable export to global markets will in large part determine the ability of Central Asia to achieve economic independence and improve the standard of living of its citizens. Ensuring this autonomy for the Caspian states, as well as diversifying global energy supplies and creating opportunities for U.S. expertise and investment, make the development of Caspian energy an important U.S. interest as well. Our policy in this area has focused on enabling these states to develop multiple and reliable transport corridors for delivery of these resources to global markets. (my emphasis…FQ)

Currently these hydrocarbon resources reach the West via pipelines that transit Russia. We seek to broaden export options for the countries of Central Asia and the companies operating there. Our objective is therefore anti-monopoly but not anti-Russian. We have supported and facilitated the efforts of Turkey, Azerbaijan and Georgia to reach agreement with private companies to build pipelines from the Caspian Sea across the Caucasus to Turkey. I am proud to say that construction of the landmark Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan (BTC) pipeline will begin this summer and will bring oil to world markets in 2005. The Shah Deniz gas pipeline, paralleling BTC, is also on track. I am also pleased that the Caspian Pipeline Consortium, or CPC Pipeline, is also now officially operating. This pipeline, which links Kazakhstan to global markets via Russia, underscores the desire to work in partnership with the former Soviet nations, developing Caspian energy

A New Partnership with RussiaOne of the most remarkable developments of the last three months has been our extraordinary cooperation with Russia in a region that was formerly part of the Soviet Union and that Russia naturally regards as its own backyard.

On October 19, we conducted our first-ever United States-Russia consultations on Central Asia. We were both pleasantly surprised and gratified by the convergence of interests in this region. We both desire long-term stability and prosperity in Central Asia, where we both have important interests. And we have pledged transparency and collaboration. Secretary Powell’s conversations in Central Asia and Moscow over the past few days were part of this new effort, and demonstrate [that] there need be no tension between our support for the sovereignty and independence of the Central Asian states and our desire for broader and deeper cooperation with Russia.

Presidents Bush and Putin are leading our countries to a new level of cooperation in many spheres, including in Central Asia. President Putin has shown noteworthy leadership in the way he has actively coordinated with Central Asian leaders to encourage their cooperation with the United States in the battle against terrorism. This supports what we have long said: that Central Asia is not a zero-sum game. We have no desire to replay the nineteenth century “Great Game” in the twenty-first. We have offered support to efforts by Russia, Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan to foster a new Caspian Sea delimitation scheme, as long as these efforts do not hinder the future transport of energy resources. Our shared interests with Russia — indeed, with the other regional powers of China, Turkey and even Iran — are greater than our areas of competition. (my emphasis…FQ)

 

The role of the Congress, and in particular this Subcommittee of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, will be vital as we invigorate our relations with Central Asia. As the former United States Ambassador to Kazakhstan, I have seen first-hand that the leaders in this region really do want an active dialogue with the United States and especially with members of Congress. I would certainly welcome more members of Congress visiting Central Asia, but particularly members of this Subcommittee. The Administration values your input and suggestions as we move forward with this region. It is for that reason that I am particularly grateful for your invitation to share perspectives today.

(end text)

(Distributed by the Office of International Information Programs, U.S. Department of State. Web site: http://usinfo.state.gov)

 

 

 

So ends the report by this commisar from he State Department of the US. It is clear, is it not, that oil is just one very small item in their total agenda which is how to have US rule and sway be effected in this most populous part of the world.

One would think that the US would have enough to do in solving all the population and resource problems in its own neck of the woods, in the good old US of A. But no here we see it sticking its nose right into the affairs of Asia and rubbing right up against the intersts of Russia.

Remember the Kennedy reaction to the Russians sending some rockets to sit on Cuban soil. It was straight to nuclear wipe-out by Kennedy and the world held its breath.

But that is a good as any definition of Imperialism and the US is the Imperialist nation par excellence!

This was carried on the url

http://emperors-clothes.com/news/alljones.htm

and was referred to from an article

The empire isn’t in Afghanistan for the oil!

By Jared Israel, The Emperor’s Clothes, 22 June 2002

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/27b/019.html

2 thoughts on “TO UNDERSTAND THIS GEORGIA ATTACK ON OSSETIA STUDY ELIZABETH JONES

  1. Felix,

    I just checked Israpundit’s comment section again and Joshua Rosenberg has really hammered yamit82 severely! LOL! 🙂

    Your JTF friend is a pretty smart guy, Felix – he knows how to handle someone like yamit82: totally fearless!

    [begin quote by Joshua Rosenberg here]

    “Josh R, funny you use Debka file when it seems to fit in with your ideology but when it doesn’t you ignore them.”

    Actually it is you, yamit82 who is doing precisely just that. When Debkafile shows that the US is working very closely with Iran against the interests and security of Israel, you prefer to totally ignore it.

    “while I agree that Clinton and Nato unjustly picked on Serbia, I refuse to buy into the bullshit you guys are peddling that = Serbia Good Kosovians Bad. These ethnic conflicts have been going on for 600 years and before and ea. side in its turn has been every bit as brutal to ea other when they could. Brutality of Slaves [sic!]including the Russians are not legend but historical truths.”

    yamit82, your above statement regarding “Kosovians” just goes to prove how devoid of knowledge you are in this area.There are no such people as “Kosovians”.If you knew anything about Balkan history at all you would be aware of that.These “Kosovians” whom you admire so much brutally expelled the entire Jewish population out of the capital, Pristina ,along with 350,000 Serbs and Gypsies with at least 6,000 murdered. They have also been forcing hundreds of thousands of school age girls from all over Europe into prostitution/sex slavery. At least 1,300 teenage Serbs had their vital organs removed while they were still alive – liver, kidneys,etc – before being murdered. This has occurred with the full knowledge of the US and NATO-EU governments.

    And how on earth can you compare the terrorist war waged by the Islamofascist KLA Albanians who were trained and supported by Osama bin Laden’s al Qaeda – along with the British under Blair and the US under Clinton – with the indigenous Kosovo Serbs who were only defending their women and children from vicious, murderous attacks by the Albanian Islamofascist terrorists running amok in their religious heartland – Kosovo and Metohija (these are Serbian names – the former meaning “Field of Blackbirds” and the latter based on the Greek word meaning “Land of Monasteries”). Kosovo and Metohija is the cradle of the Serbian people’s civilization – their “Jerusalem” – that they have lived in for over a thousand years.

    How on earth can you, yamit82, who is so ignorant of the history of this region, put a moral equivalence between the murderous, Heroin trafficking, child-sex slavery racketeering gang of vicious, brutal Islamofascist thugs with their victims – the Serbs?

    But of course, how silly of me, the answer is to be found in your oh so observant appraisal of the “historical facts” when you write…

    “These ethnic conflicts have been going on for 600 years and before and ea. side in its turn has been every bit as brutal to ea other when they could. Brutality of Slaves [sic!]including the Russians are not legend but historical truths.

    So in the yamit82 version of history, the Muslims who ruled the brutal Ottoman Turkish Muslim Empire were just as much the victims of the Serbian Christian Orthodox who were under their occupation?!?! The same Ottoman Turkish Muslim empire that beheaded hundreds of thousands of Orthodox Christian Serbs? Is this the same Ottoman Turkish Muslim Empire that brutally occupied Serbia and Bosnia for hundreds of years? What history books did you read when you were in school, yamit82? The ones provided to you by your Ottoman Empire-nostalgic Turkish Muslim friends?

    Oh but of course the final piece to the jigsaw in your views of the Serbs is this gem of a sentence:

    “Brutality of Slaves [sic!] including the Russians are not legend but historical truths.”

    So in the yamit82 way of thinking we should just lump all Slavs together and just call them “brutal” – (implying of course – in yamit’s own inimitable style – that they are just savage uncultured beasts with no redeeming qualities) and implying that no other nation on earth has a history of brutality in wars fought for national liberation – even our own Jewish one – except of course the Slavs (read in yamit82’s warped view, the equivalence of Russians and their Serbian Orthodox Christian brethren as being the “commie bad guys”).

    And your comparison of Russia defending thousands of her civilians from Georgian bombardment to Hitler’s imperialist invasion of the Sudetenland would be funny if it wasn’t so pathetically stupid. Czechoslovakia was not blasting to smithereens the Sudetenland Germans with missiles, mortars and artillery – so right there your analogy is dishonest to say the least.

    I also find it quite strange that you failed to bring up this “Sudetenland” analogy of FALSELY accusing your enemy of mistreatment of a minority which is precisely what Bill Clinton’s and NATO’s vicious imperialist 3 month military attack on defenseless Serbia was.

    This was where the US under Clinton falsely claimed that the Albanians (whom you incorrectly refer to as “Kosovians”) were being subjected to genocide and ethnic cleansing and then proceeded to bomb Serbia to smithereens for 78 days – deliberately targeting civilian buildings like schools, nursing homes, hospitals/maternity wards, child care centers, etc – killing thousands of Serbian men, women and children in the process – as they attempted to go about their daily lives (and even deliberately bombed refugee columns of hundreds of Albanians at a time who refused to support the Islamofascist terrorist KLA and were returning to their homes believing they were safe).

    “I find it curious that you accuse America of Imperialism but not Russia, totally silent on China. No mention of India and Pakistan. Against Iran because they are Islamic fundamentalist but not for Imperial regional ambitions.”

    China is just as much a target of covert destabilization by the US and NATO as Russia is as can be seen by the events in relation to Tibet leading up to the Olympics. Pakistan is a US client state. India is increasingly allying herself with China and Russia through the Shanghai Co-Operation Organization [SCO].
    South Ossetia is right inside Russia’s backyard and is overwhelmingly populated by Russians.Russians there are being bombed and killed by Georgians who started the conflict by bombing Russian civilian areas. How is it Russian imperialism if Russia intervenes to defend her civilians from attack right in her own backyard?

    Would you suggest that Israel sit back and do nothing if Hamas in the PA and Hezbollah from Lebanon started attacking and killing thousands of Jews in Judea and Samaria? What about these so-called “occupied territories”? If thousands of Jews were to come under missile, mortar and artillery attack from Arabs residing in these “occupied areas” – according to your logic (or rather the lack thereof) – you would have the IDF just sit back and do nothing to protect Jewish civilians because it would be a case of “Israeli imperialism” according to your very own standards and definition as described above in comments #10 and 15.

    If Kosovo can secede with full US and NATO backing after a brutal 3 month bombing campaign against Serbia – and where Serbia was clearly FALSELY accused of waging a campaign of genocide and ethnic cleansing against the Albanians who had illegally emigrated in their hundreds of thousands from Albania after World War 2 – then so can South Ossetia rightfully secede if the majority of its population wishes to do so, especially since South Ossetia did NOT wage a vicious, barbaric terrorist war against Georgian civilians the way the Islamofascist drug-running, child-sex slavery peddling Albanian KLA did for over 3 years against the Serbs, the Jews and Gypsies residing in Kosovo and Metohija – before the US cowards in the Clinton administration and the NATO cowards intervened on their side by bombing the Serbs for 78 days – acting as the KLA’s airforce.

    But of course, in yamit82’s twisted way of thinking the Islamofascist KLA and the Serbs are morally equivalent.

    Comment by JoshR — August 10, 2008 @ 2:11 pm

  2. Mick

    I am very grateful to Josh R for defending me against lies. I do not consider either the WRP, WSWS or SWP as Trotskyist. The position of Trotsky towards the Jews in the late 30s was honourable and that is an understatement.

    JoshR did a great job and we learned a lot from his reply to Yamit82. But there is a problem with arguing there and I should know. You can waste much time.

    I think the problem lies deep within Judaism. Judaism is a wonderful religion and tradition but it was born a long time ago.

    This aspect which Yamit82 continually holds in discussion that he demonstrates that Jews are separate from humanity…that needs to be challenged by Jews.

    It is not a material or a truthful foundation to base yourself upon.

    Also Yamit, or Ted or Bill Narvey even, they do not have a historical body of knowledge to base their experiences upon. It just does not exist.

    They have cut themselves off from the movement of the working class and all of its rich experience and heritage, even though the Jews in America played a big role in the formation of the American working class movement, the revolutionary trade unionists of the early 1900s, the struggles of the miners in the Appalachians Mountains, etc.

    It is as if Judaism is stranded way in the past. So without any body of knowledge then Jews do become susceptible to the very strong American ruling class ideology.

    Without a body of knowledge Yamit82 tends to leap about from one impression to another. He is a subjective thinker. This method is probably very ingrained by this stage.

    I am sure we can meet with Ted and Yamit at certain points of agreement but the general method can lead nowhere and is why we must develop our own independence.

    There is a whole rich history out there separate from Judaism. In fact we will have our own way of understanding Judaism, not to dismiss it, but to understand it in its historical formation and development.

    I have done 2 things these last days. 1. I have launched a site http://www.4education.wordpress.com which will be special in that it will carry many educational type articles and 2. I want us to take the lead in the struggle to defend the Serbian patriots locked up by the Hague Fascists and I have launched a special site on http://www.freekaradzic.wordpress.com

    On education I will be concentrating on almost all of the work of Avro Manhattan for some time.

    I love to get material on our site because I find it so easy to read there. Hence I tend to put material on for myself to study and hopefully others.

    I was delaying mentioning this because we still find difficulty with the banner in WordPress.

    These 3 sites will interlink and will intercut with each other and are devoted towards the creation of a cadre leadership. In one way or another learning will be at the centre of our struggle for some time.

    On further reflection on JoshR experience on Israpundit you can see how Yamit82 approaches this, as a matter of point scoring, as a debate.

    But it is not that. Point scoring is what you find on Harry’s Place and it is very superficial.

    We have got to deepen our understanding in a practice.

    Put it like this…it is useless to try to explain to Yamit82 about the history of Trotsky and Trotskyism. He has his mind made up.

    But we have to explain that history in a systematic way and direct ourselves to fresh minds and to fresh forces. I would say that Yamit82 is full of cynicism and cynicism is the death of the revolutionary movement.

    But the struggle of Josh against Yamit is part of that experience and we will remember it, hopefully learning from it.

    Some people are writing to us, some quite full of hate, but also some who are very positive, and I am sure that we will attract a certain type of person.

    PS I changed the no of links to 6, so up to 5 are allowed. If all else fails (anybody) send to me at wwwfelixquigleyatyahoodotcom and I will publish it separately

    felix

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