Ted Belman who is a pro-Israeli blogger (Israpundit.com) referred to the danger to Jews and Israel from the present talks led by Kerry, backed by Obama
http://www.4international.me and http://www.themarxistblog.com agree with Belman that the situation facing Jews and Israel is most serious
This article will do 2 things
1. It will put down here our answer to Belman’s point as to how much danger Jews are in
2. It will also put down for readers the position of a group which wrongly calls itself Trotskyist. That is the group http://www.wsws.org
A moment’s perusal will show that our views are totally at variance with the http://www.wsws.org. This means that both us and them cannot BOTH be Trotskyist.
OUR ANSWER TO THE DANGER THAT JEWS ARE IN FROM THE KERRY/LIVNI/ABBAS TALKS
August 15, 2013 at 11:26 am
This is where NATO with the help of national traitors comes in.
What is always left out by idealist and anti-materialist thinkers is the overall crisis in the capitalist system, a system which drives towards dictatorial rule behind NATO. Capitalism is a system Ted in total decline. It is a system which literally threatens all life on earth.
At least that was the main lesson of the events which led to the total destruction of Yugoslavia. Yes the components of Yugoslavia were diverging but it surely took the intervention of NATO to fight not one but two wars to end it. The result was the extension of NATO and the side-lining of Serbs as an oppositional force.
In this regard the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt may have had a setback yesterday but this must be seen against the overall NATO plans, which is to control all of the world.
The view of NATO controlling the world would not be opposed by Netanyahu or by the bulk of the Israeli population. Inside that a powerless Jewish state may or may not survive, it would be all the same really to NATO
The Palestinian Narrative, based of course on lies, plays right into this overall NATO control of the world. “Palestinianism” has become like a religion and serves to block all critical faculties in people who are led by the nose everywhere by a Media which itself is controlled by NATO.
This is why it was impossible to get the truth through about Yugoslavia. Totally impossible as was seen even on Israpundit where most Jews could not recognise the overall NATO strategy.
Thus it is also totally impossible to get the truth through about Palestinianism. The power of NATO in closing down all knowledge of these vital issues is already complete. It again affirms capitalism as a system in its death throes where basic knowledge is not allowed. This gives new light on the campaign against the freedom fighter Geller and others.
Martin Sherman does not deal sufficiently with this overall control of NATO.
The United Nations in Yugoslavia played a subservient role to NATO. It was American and British NATO forces which placed the KLA in power and which drove the Serbs out of Kosovo. The UN had become a rubber stamp. Similarly Jamie Shea answered why would NATO be brought before the Hague, NATO WAS the Hague Shea said. Again capitalism descends into barbarity.
It would be unwise to underestimate Kerry and Obama.
This is why I see the emphasis at this early stage of the talks in which Livni is in a controlling position (everything private…nobody knows what they are agreeing on) is on deciding the borders of a Palestinian state.
As Sherman knows this is the issue that will crush Israel because it will be NATO troops which will move in to the large areas of Judea and Samaria, or as they call it Palestinian territory in which repeated by the BBC ten times a day every day the Jewish presence is illegal, and it will be NATO with the connivance of a large section of Israeli society which will cleanse that area of Jews. In a new way the PLO will move in behind NATO. No matter that it will be like Kosovo a land of misery, repression and international crime, the aims of NATO as the world policeman will be furthered. The Jews because of their central history in mankind will be neutered. That all depends on the promotion of traitorous leaders and all of them in one way or another are. Definitely includes Feiglin. The new parties of the last election have already sold out.
Unless Yamit82 stops his vicious attacks on Trotskyism, stops his refusal to put forward a real programme to stop that, stops retreating when fought against to call for the intervention of God (why would he, that is intervene, did he intervene in the death camps 1939 to 45? NOOOO!) and not just Yamit82 but this whole tendency in Israeli politics stop this, then all is lost.
At least Ted has drawn the discussion back to the position of Sherman which is a correct position. I have always said Sherman must be given great credit. He has identified the problem most clearly. That is the starting point for a new discussion. But there are Fascists on this site who are determined to drive that discussion under.
On the basis of my knowledge of the crisis in the capitalist system, of the experience of how Kosovo on the basis of a lying narrative was cleansed of Serbs, Gypsies and some Jews, of the goings on in the Hague Court, then I find myself in almost total opposition to the complacency of NormanF above. He says there are so many hundreds of thousands of Jews in Judea and Samaria so that cannot be overcome. Sorry it most certainly can be overcome. As Yamit correctly says Bennett betrayed by not reacting immediately to the talks and pulling his party out of the Coalition. (Least said about Feiglin the better) For Bennett read Milosevic who also prevaricated in the face of NATO. As Sherman knows you cannot trick time, meaning when you take up a false position it is seldom you can recover that ground. Each false position is ground lost. They are moving relentlessly thanks to these false leaders to set borders for a Palestine state and NATO will be the weapon. You could well have troops from Australia in Judea and Samaria, think of that NormanF
(NormanF in point 3 had said:
There is not going to be a peace agreement! My guess is the PA will get slightly more territory and international aid to stay afloat. That is all that can be reasonably achieved for the foreseeable future. No hidden agenda here – that would imply true convergence. I don’t see it happening.
As for the last point, mass evacuation of the settlers is a fantasy. The Israeli army and police quite simply don’t have the manpower to remove several hundred thousand Jews and the Israeli government’s demolition of outposts is accomplished only with great difficulty and these are rapidly rebuilt afterwards. A permanent Jewish presence in Judea and Samaria is a fact of life and the bell cannot be unrung now.
An additional point was made by the writer, Felix Quigley, to the above analysis, as thus:
There can not be a solution for NATO which is separate from the internationalising of Jerusalem. NATO must do this because Jews hold a pivotal role in history. In order for NATO to expand its power through the Middle East and incorporating Africa, Australia and South America then that Jewish presence must be negated. This is why the greatest struggle of all may be the Jews to destroy the Mohammedan presence and rebuild the temple. This is the great significance of General Dayan surrendering the Temple in 1967. Dayan thought there could be an Israeli secular power distinct from religion but that is false. The Jews are their religion. Their religion is also the history of the Jews. You can see therefore why NATO has to destroy this aspect of the Jews, and they know if they do this, and with the Vatican at the side of NATO, then the road clears for NATO power through Africa, the Americas, Russia and China. Countries like Canada who some think a friend of Israel, but is not, will be in on this great expansion of NATO.
(end of our contribution, can be found on http://www.israpundit.com/archives/56959/comment-page-1#comment-286155, we move on to the position on th same issue by wsws)
POSITION OF WWW.WSWS.ORG ON THE KERRY TALKS
New settlements on West Bank as Israeli-Palestinian talks begin
By Jean Shaoul
15 August 2013
Just days after the preliminary “talks about talks” between Israel and the Palestinian Authority began in Washington, Israel approved new settlement construction in East Jerusalem and the West Bank.
Palestinian negotiators have long insisted on a settlement freeze as a precondition for talks, walking out of previous talks in September 2010. Israel’s provocative move confirms that it has no intention of reaching a deal on anything other than its own terms. These include:
*The annexation of all of East Jerusalem, which the Palestinians consider as their capital, and of Area C—the two thirds of the West Bank temporarily entrusted to the Israeli military under the 1993 Oslo Accords, where Israelis outnumber the 100,000 Palestinians still living there 3 to 1.
*The demilitarisation of the West Bank, whose borders will be controlled by Israel.
*The recognition of Israel as a “Jewish State”, a de facto mechanism for preventing any”return” of the 1948 and 1967 Palestinian refugees and their descendants to their former homes, and ensuring the transfer of Israeli Arabs to any putative Palestinian state.
Such a state, non-contiguous and without sovereignty, would be unacceptable to the Palestinian people, though not to large sections of the Palestinian nationalist organisation, Fatah. It relies on exploiting Palestinian cheap labour—and on handouts from the United States, Europe and the Gulf States—for its own enrichment.
The Obama administration exerted heavy pressure on the Palestinians to restart talks, which aim to provide the necessary quid pro quo to encourage Jordan, Egypt and the Gulf oil sheikhdoms to support a war to topple Syrian president Bashar Al-Assad and isolate Iran. All these sclerotic regimes face a restive working class, for whom the Israel-Palestine conflict and US-led wars in Iraq, Libya and Syria are explosive issues.
The US-sponsored talks also serve to cover Israel’s ever more rapacious land grab. On Sunday, Housing Minister Uri Ariel of the pro-settler Jewish Home party gave his final approval to the construction of 1,187 apartments. Of these, 793 will be built in East Jerusalem, which was annexed by Israel in defiance of international law shortly after the 1967 War; 394 will be built in the West Bank settlements, including Maaleh Adumim, Efrat and Ariel. This last settlement, located in the heart of the West Bank, makes it impossible to create a contiguous Palestinian statelet.
Ariel issued a statement saying, “No country in the world takes orders from other countries where it can build and where it can’t. We will continue to market housing and build in the entire country.”
This came after the approval of hundreds more housing units in settlements and a new settlement in East Jerusalem.
A few days earlier, Israel published an expanded list of settlements (from 85 to 91) in the West Bank eligible for special government subsidies, including several previously deemed illegal—without official approval by the Israeli authorities.
The settlement expansion is part of a broader plan to drive Palestinians off their land and replace them with Israeli communities.
While this takes place, world media has focused on the release of a first group of Palestinian prisoners, 26 out of a total of 104 pledged. The US pushed for this as a”confidence building measure” to provide Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas with a fig leaf to justify returning to the talks.
Some of the prisoners had objected to their release. The longest-serving prisoner wrote to Abbas saying they “didn’t want to be used as a bargaining chip.” The letter continued, “You should not agree with the releases to give way in any way in these peace talks.”
The prisoner release is much less than it seems. As all except one of the prisoners were arrested before 1994, eight were due for release in the next three years and two in the next six months. Few are well known. Ministers stressed that “if one of those released returned to hostile activities against Israel, he will be returned to complete his sentence.”
Israel has already backtracked on its agreement with the Obama administration, saying it would release a further 78 jailed for attacks carried out before 1993 in several stages over the next few months, “depending upon progress in the talks”. Clearly, Israel anticipates that the Palestinians will pull out as Israeli demands increase, thereby justifying its refusal to release the prisoners.
US secretary of state John Kerry had earlier said that Israel would release, in phases, about 80 veteran Palestinian prisoners who had served more than 20 years in Israeli jails and that 350 prisoners would be released in phases over the coming months.
Both the prisoner release and the settlement construction were, according to the BBC, coordinated with US officials as part of the pre-talks framework agreed by Israeli and Palestinian negotiators in late July. Speaking during a visit to Colombia, Kerry said that Israeli announcements “were to some degree expected because we have known that there was going to be a continuation of some building in certain places.”
The US, European Union (EU) and UN issued standard, pro forma statements criticising the settlement expansion plans. However, Washington has long supported Israel’s expansionist drive, financially and diplomatically. It even vetoed a UN Security Council resolution backed by the 14 other members in February 2011 that would have merely “urged” a halt to settlement building.
Kerry’s comments make clear that Palestinians should expect a browbeating. He called on the Palestinians “not to react adversely” to Israel’s latest plans, urging the parties to move ahead with the talks.
Chief Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat said that Israel’s plans for new homes on occupied land aimed to scupper peace talks that resumed yesterday, but he was optimistic that talks with Israel would continue. This all but confirms that the nod was indeed given to the settlements at the pre-talks in New York, with tacit Fatah support.
The current talks in Jerusalem take place in the aftermath of the army coup that overthrew the Muslim Brotherhood regime of President Mohamed Mursi in Egypt.
Encouraged by the US, Egypt’s new military junta is working closely with Tel Aviv, continuing the long-standing foreign policy of US imperialism since the Camp David Accords of 1978-1999. Together, they struck targets in the Sinai Peninsula last weekend in an apparently coordinated campaign against Islamist forces active among Bedouin tribes of the region.
The junta has also destroyed and flooded the tunnels linking Gaza and Egypt, used to smuggle goods and circumvent Israel’s six-year-long blockade, and is closing the border with Gaza, which is controlled by Hamas, the Palestinian offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood. In this way, it is acting to further isolate Gaza, divide the Palestinians, and thus aid Israel’s expansionist plans.