The issue of Libya remains central and is the touchstone of politics today

File:USS Barry (DDG-52) launching a Tomahawk missile in support of Operation Odyssey Dawn - Cropped.jpg

description:  MEDITERRANEAN SEA (March 19, 2011) The Arleigh Burke-class guided-missile destroyer USS Barry (DDG 52) launches a Tomahawk missile in support of Operation Odyssey Dawn. This was one of approximately 110 cruise missiles fired from U.S. and British ships and submarines that targeted about 20 radar and anti-aircraft sites along Libya’s Mediterranean coast. Joint Task Force Odyssey Dawn is the U.S. Africa Command task force established to provide operational and tactical command and control of U.S. military forces supporting the international response to the unrest in Libya and enforcement of United Nations Security Council Resolution (UNSCR) 1973.


Leon Trotsky without a single moment of hesitation decided to defend Haile Selassie and call for the victory to the forces of Haile Selassie when his country was attacked by Mussolini. Selassie was politically speaking a despot. It is precisely the same

4international rejects the anti-war movement (SWP et al) position which is a type of pacifism, and a type of conspiracy, and a type of anti-Semitism, is a hatred of America in the worst sense, is a hatred of Israel and the Jewish Homeland (Zionism), and also merges in with these reactionaries like you have on conspiracy blogs such as Alex Jones. We have nothing to do with that.

Yet Libya remains the touchstone of all politics.

The following is what the neo con writer on the NWT (New York Times) Bill Kristol spoke on Sky News Sunday. Video is on and this is a transcript of a key sentence:

KRISTOL: I think at this point you probably have to do more than a no fly zone. You probably have to tell Qaddafi he has to stop his movement east and that we are going to use assets to stop him from slaughtering people as he moves east across the country. We might take out his ships in the Mediterranean. We might take out tanks and artillery.

“We” of course being, not Mr Kristol personally, but the brute force of NATO. But let us be very clear when we say NATO, we also mean the United Nations, we mean the power of the US Imperialist state and system, we mean the power of the EU, we mean the Media and especially the BBC, we mean the whole apparatus of these groups such as human Rights Watch. The whole thing adds up to an evil Empire.

There is another item in the mix that keeps on appearing in these great battles in the world today.

Take Islam. In the destruction of Yugoslavia Islam in the shape of Izetbegovic and later the KLA were backed by those forces I mentioned above, in other words Imperialism. The Vatican also has been central as it always has been!

The same thing has happened in quick succession in Tunisia, Egypt and Libya

And still one more item and that is the role of both China and Russia. At key points in every situation these two forces betray. They did it in Yugoslavia and they have done it again at the most crucial time in Libya, when they voted or abstained in key UN Resolutions. Later they make complaints but that is after the damage is done. Later they try to withdraw but their previous action (of support for Imperialism) is over and done with. This means that the historical betrayal of “Stalinism” still continues

Of course we on 4international support the fight of Jihadwatch and of Atlas Shrugs against the alliance with Sharia in America especially. Both of those blogs are continually exposing Islam/Sharia as the most repressive ideology known to man. This is especially the case with Islam/Sharia and the role of women in society. In this 4international stands shoulder to shoulder with Jihadwatch and with Atlas Shrugs.

But neither of those two sites and leaderships have ever for single split second defended Gadhafi and his leadership from the above reaction

And that in a sense is a starting point of everything

I issue a challenge. It is very simple. Read through Jihadwatch and Atlas Shrugs. You will see lots of evidence that they KNOW that the Gadhafi regime is under threat from what we describe above. But you will find NO defence of the Gadhafi regime.

That is a big issue and that is an HISTORICAL issue

I mean “historical” in the sense that before this is out those two sites and leaderships will have to face up to what they have done on this issue. (Felix Quigley)


I think that these Serb so/called leaders can do nothing but betray the historical struggle of the Serbs against Imperialism and against the Islamic Jihad

The more I look into them the more I come to this conclusion

Julia Gorin lives in a world of her own. Single issue politics to me are absolute nonsence, and that is a generous description. You cannot fight on a principled basis in today’s world and not cover the vital issues like the ICC attacks on the Gadhafi family, the NATO war on Gadhafi, the bombs dropped by Cameron’s Tornadoes etc etc.

Looking at the Serbianna blog I had to search very hard to find anything on this, never mind a defence of Gadhafi, and the most I got was from a blog by a Lee Jay Walker of April 17 carried by Serbianna

Talk about confusion! This guy is all over the place! Some things I agree with for the simple reason he says so many things and faces so many directions at once, but this sums up the confusion. Walker writes: 

It is difficult to see a democratic savior amongst the opposition to Gaddafi in Libya.  This in itself does not mean that Gaddafi must be left alone to kill and attack innocent citizens but once you take sides then the situation becomes even more chaotic.

But Walker you have taken sides just there. do you not understand yourself?

You are saying that Gadhafi is killing innocent civilians, which is precisely the lies of Cameron and Obama, of NATO and of ICC, and what’s all this guff about “democratic” anyways!

When I attacked Gorin before the Serbs bloggers closed ranks and attacked me.

But so bloody what!

There is only the one correct policy to have in relation to Muammar Gadhafi against the ICC and against NATO, not to mention against the Brit Imperialists, the French Imperialists, the lie machine which was and is also used fully against the Jews and Serbs


Understanding of course that this does not imply political agreement (we are Trotskyists) with the politics or programme of Gadhafi. That goes without saying if you have an inch of common sense.

That is what Gorin is doing. She is even now ignoring the ICC hounding of Gadhafi. It is both amazing and absurd.


I could not imagine Milosevic or Karadzic taking the position of Gorin!

These Serb ideologues are centrists and possibly in the case of Gorin anyway with her support for US Imperialism, even imperialists, so how could they fight to defend the valiant Serbs? No way Josey!

I quote the intro and points 1 and 5 of Trotsky from many years ago (how things have not changed!) in conflict with the British labourist traitors over the issue of defence of Abyssinia against  the Nazis

Only a hardened reactionary would not see the connection of that to Gorin saying that the planned murder of Gadhafi by Imperialism is not of interest (to her!!!)

It is with great astonishment that I read the report of the conference of the Independent Labour Party in the [London] New Leader of April 17, 1936. I really never entertained any illusions about the pacifist parliamentarians who run the ILP. But their political position and their whole conduct at the conference exceeds even those bounds that can usually be expected of them. I am sure that you and your friends have drawn approximately the same conclusions as we have here. Nevertheless I cannot refrain from making several observations.

1. Maxton [1] and the others opine that an Italo-Ethiopian war is conflict between two rival dictators. To these politicians it appears that this fact relieves the proletariat of the duty of making a choice between two dictators. They thus define the character of the war by the political form of the state, in the course of which they themselves regard this political form in a quite superficial and purely descriptive manner, without taking into consideration the social foundations of both “dictatorships”. A dictator can also play a very progressive role in history. For example: Oliver Cromwell, Robespierre, etc. On the other hand, right in the midst of the English democracy Lloyd George [2] exercised a highly reactionary dictatorship during the war. Should a dictator place himself at the head of the next uprising of the Indian people in order to smash the British yoke – would Maxton then refuse this dictator his support? Yes or no? If no, why does he refuse his support to the Ethiopian “dictator” who is attempting to ward off the Italian yoke?

and point 5

which deals importantly with Fenner Brockway, because that centrtist appeared to agree with Trotsky that Abyssinia should be defended against the Nazis, but then went on to see it as an incidental issue. Just as these present Serb traitors are doing…you see they are essentially all centrists!

5. Fenner Brockway’s [5] position on this question is a highly instructive example of the political and moral insufficiency of centrism. Fenner Brockway was lucky enough to adopt a correct point of view in an important question, a view that coincides with ours. The difference lies in this, however, that we Marxists really mean the thing seriously. To Fenner Brockway, on the contrary, it is a matter of something “incidental”. He believes it is better for the British workers to have Maxton as chairman with a false point of view than to have a correct point of view without Maxton. That is the fate of centrism – to consider the incidental serious and the serious thing incidental. That’s why centrism should never be taken seriously.

We Marxists really mean the thing seriously.


yes, that is it! Trotsky has put his finger on the very issue of today.

You see when we came out and defended the Serbs against Imperialism, when we insisted that the Srebrenica “massacre” was a piece of fakery, just as the slander of the Jews and Israel was a piece of fakery in the case of the Muhammed el Dura France 2 blood libel, we were dammed serious about our hatred for these lies of Imperialism.

Thus we now defend Gadhafi against these same lies.

That is the difference between us and them.

But will our enemies understand?